Giulia. New segment leader? Would you buy one?

[Ares]

RobM77 said:

MrGTI6 said:

Ares said:

The irony is, all the best sports cars have auto/DSG/PDK/etc boxes

Depends what you mean by 'best'. For me, the best sports cars are manual.

Yes, again it's subjective. However, it does actually seem like a strange thing to say. Many sports cars have an auto option, mainly for the American market, but out of the cars I would consider "the best sports cars", many come with just manual boxes and all have an option of a manual. I don't know of any automatic only true sports cars.

Lotus Elise: Manual only
Evora: Manual and Auto
Exige: Manual, but with a super rare auto available in recent years.
2-Eleven and 3-Eleven: Manual only
Cayman: Manual and PDK option
Boxster: Manual and PDK option
Caterham: Manual only
Honda S2000: Manual only
BAC Mono: Manual only
MX5: manual and auto
Ariel Atom: manual only
Ultima: Manual, but I suspect an auto is available with the American engines they use. I've never heard of one though.

I'm struggling to think of sports cars that are auto only. There are a few of what I would refer to as GTs and some supercars - perhaps that was what Ares was thinking of? They're not really sports cars though.

Plus, we mustn't forget that all racing cars are manual. I'm ready to be corrected, but I don't think I've ever heard of an automatic racing car.

Just to restate my original point - it's personal taste and it's good to have a choice.

Struggling this think of sportscars with auto/pdk/etc....?

Ferrari
Lamborghini
McLaren
Porsche
Pagani
Aston Martin
Koenigsegg

Need more?

[Ares]

SidewaysSi said:

Ares said:

RobM77 said:

MrGTI6 said:

Ares said:

The irony is, all the best sports cars have auto/DSG/PDK/etc boxes

Depends what you mean by 'best'. For me, the best sports cars are manual.

Yes, again it's subjective. However, it does actually seem like a strange thing to say. Many sports cars have an auto option, mainly for the American market, but out of the cars I would consider "the best sports cars", many come with just manual boxes and all have an option of a manual. I don't know of any automatic only true sports cars.

Lotus Elise: Manual only
Evora: Manual and Auto
Exige: Manual, but with a super rare auto available in recent years.
2-Eleven and 3-Eleven: Manual only
Cayman: Manual and PDK option
Boxster: Manual and PDK option
Caterham: Manual only
Honda S2000: Manual only
BAC Mono: Manual only
MX5: manual and auto
Ariel Atom: manual only
Ultima: Manual, but I suspect an auto is available with the American engines they use. I've never heard of one though.

I'm struggling to think of sports cars that are auto only. There are a few of what I would refer to as GTs and some supercars - perhaps that was what Ares was thinking of? They're not really sports cars though.

Plus, we mustn't forget that all racing cars are manual. I'm ready to be corrected, but I don't think I've ever heard of an automatic racing car.

Just to restate my original point - it's personal taste and it's good to have a choice.

Struggling this think of sportscars with auto/pdk/etc....?

Ferrari
Lamborghini
McLaren
Porsche
Pagani
Aston Martin
Koenigsegg

Need more?

To be fair, those manufacturers need to be seen to have the latest tech so everyone can feel they are changing gear like their F1 heros. It is more about fashion.

Good gearboxes in the main but those cara tend not to appeal to me.

What about an Alfaholics GTA-R for example? Probably a finer and more involving car than that lot put together.

mmmm....I'm quite sure the ultimate sports car manufacturers use the best 'box for the job, rather than just to be seen to use the latest tech as a fashion statement?

[Ares]

RobM77 said:

Ares said:

Struggling this think of sportscars with auto/pdk/etc....?

Ferrari
Lamborghini
McLaren
Porsche
Pagani
Aston Martin
Koenigsegg

Need more?

Yes, some sports cars would help The cars you have listed are mainly big, heavy toys for fat, rich men to cruise around city centres, and market demand has therefore led to the fitting of auto boxes. However, when those manufacturers make a true driver's car, like the McLaren F1 or 911 GT3, it's usually equally manual or auto and often manual only. The 991 GT3 bucked the trend with its PDK only release (which still isn't really a true auto, because it has no torque converter; it's actually a roboticised manual), but after the uproar that caused, Porsche backed down and this time last year announced it was coming with a manual option. Why do you think that was? And what about the driver's Porsche, the 911 R? Manual only.

I'm not deriding slush boxes, they're great at what they do, but to pretend they're the only choice for someone who loves driving is ridiculous. They're the premier choice for luxury cars and SUVs, yes, but not driver's cars or people who love driving. Find me an automatic Caterham, Elise, or in fact any racing car - I can't think of a single racing car that's an automatic - sequential, yes, but always still manual with a standard manual clutch and a dog box.

I think you're losing the plot now. Sports cars don't get any more sports cars than those. They are not 'heavy toys designed for fast rich men??

...and you're saying that a 20yr old McLaren and a 10 yr old Porsche GT3 are the best Manual sports cars? (especially when modern versions have all gone auto?)

....and you're getting it the wrong way round. I'm not saying autos are the only choice for someone who loves driving....you are saying manuals are the only true choice for someone who loves driving.

[Ares]

Rawwr said:

Ares said:

Struggling this think of sportscars with auto/pdk/etc....?

Ferrari
Lamborghini
McLaren
Porsche
Pagani
Aston Martin
Koenigsegg

Need more?

Ferrari, Lamborghini, McLaren, Pagani and Koenigsegg don't make any sports cars, they all make supercars with the odd dash of a GT, where the goal is to use technology to make the car as fast as possible or as comfortable as possible. That is oft removed from the enjoyment of driving.

Porsche do make sports cars in the Boxster and Cayman and they're available with manual transmission. At the higher end, the GT3 is also available as a manual.

Aston Martin make a mix of GTs and supercars but are quite far removed from making sports cars.

Thats the sound of splitting hairs.....

I really don't think the LaFerrari/488/Huracan/Peformante/918/720s/P1/etc are GT cars. If they are not the epitome of sportscars, I'm not sure what is?

Or are you saying that sports cars can't have more than X bhp or £X? To say proper sports cars have manual boxes because an MX5 has one and a LaFerrari doesn't is a bit daft,

[Ares]

mattyn1 said:

I test drove a Speciale on Saturday.

Absolutely lovely - and would have if:

the boot access was larger, and it had a centre arm rest & cup holders in the back for the kids.

You should have driven a sportscar instead. MX5 doesn't have those problems, you fat toy driver

[Ares]

captain_cynic said:

Ares said:

Struggling this think of sportscars with auto/pdk/etc....?

Ferrari
Lamborghini
McLaren
Porsche
Pagani
Aston Martin
Koenigsegg

Need more?

Aren't sports cars as others have pointed out... but you seemed to have forgotten that Aston still offer a manual box on their DB11 and one is coming to the new V8 Vantage.

Pagani in the Hyuaraurauraua went to great lengths to make the gear stick feel like a manual. Also, the Zonda was manual (most of them at least).

However we're not talking about £150,000+ supercars, we're talking about the "Compact Executive" sector which tops out at around £50,000 the Alfa's main competitors are the BMW 3 series, available in Manual, Audi A4, available in manual and the Mercedes C class (which also has a manual, but the C class is far from sporty).

Anyone looking for a sporty executive saloon will be driven towards the Audi or 3er and a big part of that is the option of a 3 pedal. Hence I think Afla are doing themselves a disservice by not offering a manual here in the UK (even if it is a bit rubbish... but that just adds to its Alfa-ish charm).

No, on that, I was responding to that daft assertion that optimum sports cars never have autos....when in fact they pretty much all do.

But it turns out some people see an MX5 as more of a performance/sports car than a Ferrari/Lambo/McLaren/etc (which are all overweight toys for fat men, apparently)

[Ares]

Rawwr said:

Yes, I see a Mazda MX5 as more of a sports car than a Ferrari F12.

I can almost get that. But more of a sports car than all Ferraris? (and Lamborghinis/Mclarens/etc?)

[Ares]

RobM77 said:

On your first statement, nobody ever said that. What we said was that manual gearboxes were a common choice for keen drivers, as demonstrated by the fact that all sports cars are either manual only or have a manual option. Furthermore, all racing cars (true sports cars in the purest definition of the term) are manual. I think I stated very early on that some road going sports cars come with automatic boxes (the NSX mk1 and Exige S spring to mind), but these remain rare options, further compounding the point that many keen drivers (most in those two cases) prefer manual boxes.

All we're saying is that some of us keen drivers prefer manual boxes, even when we've tried the ZF 8 speed box and decent double clutch boxes.

On your second point, yes of course, because the MX5 is a sports car and a Lambo, Ferrari or McLaren is a supercar/GT; therefore the MX5 is more of a sports car than a Lambo etc.

...and then I provided a list of sports cars that were auto only, or mostly auto.

Not quite sure what you definition of a sports car is (unless it is a manual two-seater )

EVO mag described a sports car as "A sports car, or sportscar, is usually two-seat, two-door car designed for spirited performance and nimble handling"

And listed the best 5 sports cars (In March 2017) as:

911 GTS
Audi R8 V10
McLaren 570s
AMG-GT
BMW i8 (?)

[Ares]

RobM77 said:

wst said:

RobM77 said:

An auto in full auto mode doesn't know the difference between cornering, when you need revs for control, and a straight, when you want lack of revs for mpg.

Except for the battalion of sensors which mean that it knows exactly what the car is doing...

It's not what the car is doing that's the issue, it's what the car is about to do next.... The car has no way of knowing that you're about to turn in to a corner.

All I'm saying is that it's nice to have the option of a manual box for those that like them.

No gearbox knows what the car is about to do. All gearboxes require the driver to 'tell' them.

[Ares]

budgie smuggler said:

Ares said:

No gearbox knows what the car is about to do. All gearboxes require the driver to 'tell' them.

Can't remember what car it is, but isn't there one which uses the GPS mapping files to hold a gear or change down preemptively when approaching turns?

Still not the gearbox that knows