Can't stand all these buzzy little engines these days
Discussion
Just completed 1200 miles in a Focus 1.0 Eco Boom. Yes it goes well for a 1l. But with real effort 44mpg. On the same journeys my old MGF does exactly the same. Though a few HP less. No better than the 1.6 Focus I and years ago.
Just been given a Peugeot 308 1.2 130hp. Feels light years faster than the Focus 125hp. Be interesting to see what it manages mpg wise.
For a given power it seems much the same efficiency small turbo or larger NA.
Just been given a Peugeot 308 1.2 130hp. Feels light years faster than the Focus 125hp. Be interesting to see what it manages mpg wise.
For a given power it seems much the same efficiency small turbo or larger NA.
Boosted LS1 said:
It's nice when you can roar past something dicking about. Sadly those days will be gone soon once legislation cuts our balls off. Some on here handed theirs in on a plate a long time ago!
The prospect of what Tesla did when the wildfires in California were raging, is terrifying. For those who are unaware, using their cellular connectivity, Tesla 'temporarily increased the range' of their cars. Essentially, just letting the batteries drain a bit lower than they are usually allowed to.
Add to that they have the capability to drive themselves... what happens when they are hacked, or their network compromised? If the government wants to slow down / turn off personal vehicles... too much company / governmental control over the individual...
[/tinfoil hat]
But I am being serious...
volvos60s60 said:
I just wanted to articulate some irritation I have that most cars these days seem to have these buzzy little sub 1600cc engines, often turbocharged to cover their size deficiencies
[Lots of boring crap removed by Capt. Cynic]
You can go onto an Australian car forum and hear people complaining about 2L engines compared to American 3L V6's, despite the 2L turbo producing more power and a max torque at a lower RPM. Hell, you'll get them complaining about engines smaller than 5L despite the American 6.2L V8 in their Commodores producing less than 400 HP (270 KW). I almost get that out of a stock 3L turbo straight six and the car is faster than a Commodore V8. [Lots of boring crap removed by Capt. Cynic]
Dont get me wrong, I love a good V8 but the LS, so loved by Commodore fanboys is a terrible example. However when it comes to modern small turbo engines, they aren't that bad. Put a small turbo designed to make power into a light hatchback and it's a dream to drive. I can remember a time when a 2L turbo made less than 200 HP, now you can get that out of a 1.5 turbo. I had a Honda Integra DC5, it's naturally aspirated K20 engine produced more power than a 3.5L GM Ecotec from the Holdens of the day and was much faster as the car weighed half a ton less. Big engines can be just as boring when made to be.
Engines have come a long way. A 1.5L turbo is like the 2L and 2.5L turbos of yore. The problem is that a lot of mass produced cars are... well produced for the masses, not for petrol heads. I think that new small cars like the Up(exclamation mark) GTI are a good idea, a small, light car with a small peppy engine are a hoot to drive. However these cars will never sell as well as a 1.2L turbo econo-box and as petrol heads, we must accept this.
TobyLerone said:
The prospect of what Tesla did when the wildfires in California were raging, is terrifying.
I understand why they did it. I mean restricting the discharge of the batteries, Lithium Ion batteries dont like being fully discharged, it tends to shorten their life. Continually recharging a Li-ion battery will do it no harm OTOH. Given that a car is something designed to potentially have a 20+ year life span, they want the battery to last as long as possible and this can mean protecting it from it's owner. Li-ion and Li-po (Lithium Polymer) are expected to have life spans of 3-5 years of daily charging before losing significant capacity.
The scary part is being able to turn this feature off remotely.
Maybe all these people on the roads OP keeps seeing are just buying cars with small engines because they need something cheap to get to work/shops/friends and back. Not everyone can afford to run a big NA engine, i for one am glad of the small engine progress. My commute costs £60 a month for just shy of 800 miles and i can think of many people who aren't PH driving gods and WOULDN'T benefit from a big thirsty NA engine car.
Edited by Murphy16 on Sunday 21st January 05:31
As mentioned, a lot of people care more about running costs, than driving big N/A engines around on crowded, Gatso infested UK roads.
I've run two 1 litre 3 pot turbos this year. The pro's are that they cheap to run, and can be boosty/sporty at higher rpms, the down sides are if you've driven a bigger n/a engine, the lack of low rev torque in the 1 litre triples is wearying.
Also a lot of UK drivers still try to amble around and get into fifth gear at 30 mph as soon as possible, due to decades of brain-washing over fuel costs and eco nag-lights on the dashboard.
I'm happy running around in the 'shopping car' at 63 mpg, because if I want something a bit more interesting for the weekends I can hire it, or do a Porsche track day at Silverstone or Thruxton.
I've run two 1 litre 3 pot turbos this year. The pro's are that they cheap to run, and can be boosty/sporty at higher rpms, the down sides are if you've driven a bigger n/a engine, the lack of low rev torque in the 1 litre triples is wearying.
Also a lot of UK drivers still try to amble around and get into fifth gear at 30 mph as soon as possible, due to decades of brain-washing over fuel costs and eco nag-lights on the dashboard.
I'm happy running around in the 'shopping car' at 63 mpg, because if I want something a bit more interesting for the weekends I can hire it, or do a Porsche track day at Silverstone or Thruxton.
Edited by Slushbox on Sunday 21st January 08:34
I don't have a problem with them.
Mrs Morgrp has a new BMW 118i with the 3cylinder twin power turbo engine and its very impressive - Its only done 1600miles so far but the mpg is creeping up - book figures are 8.something to 60, decentish in gear acceleration times and on a run 50mg is do-able. My only criticism is the lack noise. Its eerily quiet and refined - great on a motorway but not so good when having fun. Its a shame because even in it's muted state it sounds good.
Sure I love my Volvo T5 for its grunt and its noise, but as a device of conveyance to and from work on nasty roads full of traffic, the 23mpg becomes a pain in the arse. Every petrol head loves big engines but there is a time and place for them and on Mrs Morgrp's 15mile commute to work they serve no purpose.
Mrs Morgrp has a new BMW 118i with the 3cylinder twin power turbo engine and its very impressive - Its only done 1600miles so far but the mpg is creeping up - book figures are 8.something to 60, decentish in gear acceleration times and on a run 50mg is do-able. My only criticism is the lack noise. Its eerily quiet and refined - great on a motorway but not so good when having fun. Its a shame because even in it's muted state it sounds good.
Sure I love my Volvo T5 for its grunt and its noise, but as a device of conveyance to and from work on nasty roads full of traffic, the 23mpg becomes a pain in the arse. Every petrol head loves big engines but there is a time and place for them and on Mrs Morgrp's 15mile commute to work they serve no purpose.
People make economic decisions.
It is interesting that OP is annoyed by buzzy engines while a recent thread had a poster complaining that naughbours and passers by were annoyed by his loud exhaust.
While I like the sound of traditional engines ( have two n/a V8s, two flat sixes a straight 6 and a turbo V8 arriving shortly as well as a 3 cyl Smart I have no doubt that ICEs are on the way out and people like me are dinosaurs.
In the end all of the stuff I have will become curiosities for the next generation and I will end up texting and drinking coffee as my Googlepod transports me silently to my programmed destination. Till then people are most welcome to buzz away. Most people have zero interest in cars and most cars are not very interesting.
It is interesting that OP is annoyed by buzzy engines while a recent thread had a poster complaining that naughbours and passers by were annoyed by his loud exhaust.
While I like the sound of traditional engines ( have two n/a V8s, two flat sixes a straight 6 and a turbo V8 arriving shortly as well as a 3 cyl Smart I have no doubt that ICEs are on the way out and people like me are dinosaurs.
In the end all of the stuff I have will become curiosities for the next generation and I will end up texting and drinking coffee as my Googlepod transports me silently to my programmed destination. Till then people are most welcome to buzz away. Most people have zero interest in cars and most cars are not very interesting.
I think most modern cars have become boring or lack as much character, and the engine size is not to do with it. If I imagined my favorite large cc engine in a modern saloon, it just wouldnt work. An old Jag with a complementing V12, a V6 Alfa, or a old buzzy turbo small cc car is where its at.
I agree with the OP.
A 1.4T car for commuting is fair enough, but the annoying thing is you can't buy a premium car with a decent engine in the UK anymore.
I like my Mercedes E Classes, but unless you want and AMG you can't even buy a petrol in the UK anymore.
The diesels, to me, are missing the point of what a Merc is about, you lose all the refinement.
There is a absolute huge difference between the 3 litre diesel and even the E300 (4cyl turbo) that you can get outside the UK, the petrol is much more refined, although a bit on/off with the power which ruins it for me, but in comparison again the 3.5 litre V6 petrol makes the 4cyl petrol feel pretty agricultural too.
Comparing the V6 diesel to the V6 petrol is just silly, they feel like different cars, the diesel I simply don't get unless you are doing 40k miles a year, but even then the cost difference unless you are buying 6 years old for £10k are negligible.
Why someone doing 15k miles a year buys the diesel is bizarre?
If I am going to be spending my hard earned I want an engine that does the car justice, and you can't even buy them any more.
A 1.4T car for commuting is fair enough, but the annoying thing is you can't buy a premium car with a decent engine in the UK anymore.
I like my Mercedes E Classes, but unless you want and AMG you can't even buy a petrol in the UK anymore.
The diesels, to me, are missing the point of what a Merc is about, you lose all the refinement.
There is a absolute huge difference between the 3 litre diesel and even the E300 (4cyl turbo) that you can get outside the UK, the petrol is much more refined, although a bit on/off with the power which ruins it for me, but in comparison again the 3.5 litre V6 petrol makes the 4cyl petrol feel pretty agricultural too.
Comparing the V6 diesel to the V6 petrol is just silly, they feel like different cars, the diesel I simply don't get unless you are doing 40k miles a year, but even then the cost difference unless you are buying 6 years old for £10k are negligible.
Why someone doing 15k miles a year buys the diesel is bizarre?
If I am going to be spending my hard earned I want an engine that does the car justice, and you can't even buy them any more.
davebem said:
I think most modern cars have become boring or lack as much character, and the engine size is not to do with it. If I imagined my favorite large cc engine in a modern saloon, it just wouldnt work. An old Jag with a complementing V12, a V6 Alfa, or a old buzzy turbo small cc car is where its at.
Older cars certainly have more style then a lot of modern stuff. Out on my street at the moment are 3 small cars, 2 are plain bland. The other isn't much nicer but has some stylish touches.Yeah, yeah ... same power as a larger engine.
Lower emissions, slightly better mpg ... blah blah.
It's the longevity of these microscopic turbocharged sewing machine engines that concerns me.
A very good mechanic friend of mine (who has worked on practically everything) told me years ago that the trend for modern stuff - small engine, turbo - is just a time bomb.
If you're happy driving 'round in your leased 1.0 Audi A1 and giving it back after 3 years,so be it.
But I buy my cars with cash and keep them.
I want reliabiity, performance and longevity and the options are becoming more limited.
Lower emissions, slightly better mpg ... blah blah.
It's the longevity of these microscopic turbocharged sewing machine engines that concerns me.
A very good mechanic friend of mine (who has worked on practically everything) told me years ago that the trend for modern stuff - small engine, turbo - is just a time bomb.
If you're happy driving 'round in your leased 1.0 Audi A1 and giving it back after 3 years,so be it.
But I buy my cars with cash and keep them.
I want reliabiity, performance and longevity and the options are becoming more limited.
Red 4 said:
Yeah, yeah ... same power as a larger engine.
Lower emissions, slightly better mpg ... blah blah.
It's the longevity of these microscopic turbocharged sewing machine engines that concerns me.
A very good mechanic friend of mine (who has worked on practically everything) told me years ago that the trend for modern stuff - small engine, turbo - is just a time bomb.
If you're happy driving 'round in your leased 1.0 Audi A1 and giving it back after 3 years,so be it.
But I buy my cars with cash and keep them.
I want reliabiity, performance and longevity and the options are becoming more limited.
But is it, really? 99.999999999% engines spend 99.99999999999% of their life at well below their operating limits (with regards to revs/load/speed etc) and all engines from manufacturer X have to meet the same/similar in-house testing standards. Why, if properly maintained, would a smaller engine be more likely to fail?Lower emissions, slightly better mpg ... blah blah.
It's the longevity of these microscopic turbocharged sewing machine engines that concerns me.
A very good mechanic friend of mine (who has worked on practically everything) told me years ago that the trend for modern stuff - small engine, turbo - is just a time bomb.
If you're happy driving 'round in your leased 1.0 Audi A1 and giving it back after 3 years,so be it.
But I buy my cars with cash and keep them.
I want reliabiity, performance and longevity and the options are becoming more limited.
And FWIW with each change in engine tech comes the same arguments.
“Too complicated”
“Too fragile”
“Too stressed”
...etc, etc. And has done, I’d imagine, since the Model T. Yet, here we are: small engines that run as well at -20 degrees and new as they do at +40 and 200,000+ miles, chuck out ample torque, comparatively few emissions and only require the odd oil change.
Yeah, progress is a b
h.
“Too complicated”
“Too fragile”
“Too stressed”
...etc, etc. And has done, I’d imagine, since the Model T. Yet, here we are: small engines that run as well at -20 degrees and new as they do at +40 and 200,000+ miles, chuck out ample torque, comparatively few emissions and only require the odd oil change.
Yeah, progress is a b
h.I have a supercharged Mustang 4.6 and prior to that, a series of Chevy 5.7 V8s and prior to that a huge variety of cars including a twin cam 2.0 Alfa, a VW 1.8 and 2.0 GTI and in the smaller but equally brilliant echelons a 5 GT Turbo and Alfa 1200 Ti.
I also have a Mk 7 Fiesta ST and it goes well, sounds good and handles like an ace, to the point where I actually feel I don't need to drive the Mustang.
Sure, I miss the leaky, cast iron, bigger capacity, strangled, carburetted, thirsty cars of yore, with their clattering camshafts, low bhp and restrictive exhausts including the Rover V8 that was based on a very early 60s engine....
I had a 2005 2.0ST that was never more than a warm hatch and the 1.6ST is far, far stronger, only the steering is worse.
I have also been amazed by cars like the Fiat 500 TwinAir that sounds like a diesel but goes extremely well.
It really isn't all about the noise it makes...
I also have a Mk 7 Fiesta ST and it goes well, sounds good and handles like an ace, to the point where I actually feel I don't need to drive the Mustang.
Sure, I miss the leaky, cast iron, bigger capacity, strangled, carburetted, thirsty cars of yore, with their clattering camshafts, low bhp and restrictive exhausts including the Rover V8 that was based on a very early 60s engine....
I had a 2005 2.0ST that was never more than a warm hatch and the 1.6ST is far, far stronger, only the steering is worse.
I have also been amazed by cars like the Fiat 500 TwinAir that sounds like a diesel but goes extremely well.
It really isn't all about the noise it makes...
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