RE: PH Service History: To lease or not to lease

[Fast Bug]

Pommy said:

Frankly, who cares if it really is clickbait? I have read an article, gained something from it and the discussion thereafter and its cost me NOTHING. What is there to complain about?!

Well the information isn't really accurate, if you're going to bother scribbling an article you should at least take a few minutes to do some research first. Maybe they could have contacted one of the several contract hire brokers that pay them to use their forums to advertise on to us, their readers.

I don't care if a forum is free to use or they charge a fee to use it, the content in articles should at least be vaguely correct

[Ares]

Deep said:

Ares said:

Where have you looked for deals on an E43? £6,000 down and £1,000/mth?

A quick 2 minutes search more than halves your quotes:



OK, You'll have to stick on VAT if you can't reclaim, but thats still under £600/mth.

Thanks.

However I don't think any of those deals have the premium package plus do they?

Cheers

True, from when I looked at the C63S, it added about £40-50/mth to the lease costs - sometimes less as the residual is far higher.

[Ares]

Deep said:

talksthetorque said:

It would add a maximum of £120 a month to the price.
£3895/(23+9)

Apologies if I've misunderstood but

£120 a month onto the price of £480 = £600 .
£600 + vat = £720 per month

Upfront payment = £6480.

Total cost over two years = £23040.

I've just paid £46k for a 6 month old car. I doubt the car will lose 50% of its value in 2 years to equal the £23k in rental payments.

I admit there is an opportunity cost though.

Once again apologies if I have misunderstood.

Yes, but you are comparing used with new,.....AND if you have got a 6 month old, £60,000 E43 Premium for £46k, then your car has depreciated around £15,000 in 6 months already!!

On that basis, you have either got a crazy under-market value price or the model is depreciating heavily, on that basis, even if deprecations slows down by two-thirds, you are not far from breaking even.

If the Premium package is more like the £50/mth that the C63s was, the cost will be £15,900. £15k after you factor RFL....meaning if you car *only* depreciates that same in the next 2 years as it has in the last 6 months, you'll break even....and have no risk....and have the opportunity cost of investing your capital....and thats even after getting a crazy low price in the first place!

[Wills2]

Deep said:

Apologies if I've misunderstood but

£120 a month onto the price of £480 = £600 .
£600 + vat = £720 per month

Upfront payment = £6480.

Total cost over two years = £23040.

I've just paid £46k for a 6 month old car. I doubt the car will lose 50% of its value in 2 years to equal the £23k in rental payments.

I admit there is an opportunity cost though.

Once again apologies if I have misunderstood.

Don't be so sure, the market doesn't like large 4 door petrol cars at 2-3 years old they take one hell of a beating during that time, I lost 26k in one year on an M5 that was 66k discounted from a list of 82k as an example.

The lease cost gives a clear indication of the depreciation they expect.

[Ares]

Wills2 said:

Deep said:

Apologies if I've misunderstood but

£120 a month onto the price of £480 = £600 .
£600 + vat = £720 per month

Upfront payment = £6480.

Total cost over two years = £23040.

I've just paid £46k for a 6 month old car. I doubt the car will lose 50% of its value in 2 years to equal the £23k in rental payments.

I admit there is an opportunity cost though.

Once again apologies if I have misunderstood.

Don't be so sure, the market doesn't like large 4 door petrol cars at 2-3 years old they take one hell of a beating during that time, I lost 26k in one year on an M5 that was 66k discounted from a list of 82k as an example.

The lease cost gives a clear indication of the depreciation they expect.

Especially, as mentioned above, this car has already depreciated £15,000 in 6mths.


The value of leasing is true across the spectrum. Mrs Ares wants to change her car. She has a 13-plate MINI Cooper Sport Chili. We bought it at 10mths old for £15,500 - new price was £22,500. It's worth today, c£8,000. We paid cash for it.

On that basis, over nearly 4 yrs it has depreciated £7,500. (£14,500 from new).

She looking at replacing it with a BMW 1-Series. She was abhorred about the prospect of not buying it outright.....until I pointed out her 2nd hand MINI had cost her £163/mth (IF she is able to get £8k for it). The brand new 1-series, worth £26k, can be hers for £178. Factor in saving £140/yr RFL, and the difference between a 2nd hand MINI and a brand new 1-series is a fiver a month.

[nickfrog]

Conversely, buying a new M135i cost me 30% less than leasing it, even at the lowest historical rates. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

[Jonno02]

macdeb said:

well ,being as I'm not 'glued' to the PH screen all day, everyday, it's the first time I've read such an article here and thought it makes a very valid point. You are just renting the car during it's biggest depreciation period. Salesmen must love it.

Yeah, except the finance company acquire the cars FAR cheaper than you or I ever could. Most manufacturers have their own finance arms as this means they can supply cars very cheaply without devaluing the brand.

The car I wanted last year from the best possible broker price was £1500 down and £320 a month for 8k mileage a year over 48 months. Or, I could lease it for a total of £249 a month for 10k miles over 24 months and get another brand new one after this time.

Yes, salesmen love it - and so do I!

As the post above me says, if the manufacturer doesn't support the lease on the car (m140i) it's much better to buy. Buy/lease with your head, not your ego.

Edited by Jonno02 on Thursday 25th January 12:44

[topless360]

Ares said:

She looking at replacing it with a BMW 1-Series. She was abhorred about the prospect of not buying it outright.....until I pointed out her 2nd hand MINI had cost her £163/mth (IF she is able to get £8k for it). The brand new 1-series, worth £26k, can be hers for £178. Factor in saving £140/yr RFL, and the difference between a 2nd hand MINI and a brand new 1-series is a fiver a month.

Is there any deposit on the 1 series though? £178 strikes me as very cheap is there's no deposit due. What's the mileage allowance?

As a comparison, we bought a main dealer approved used Jaguar XF for around £19500. Now, 30 months and 23k miles later it's worth around £12k.
So it's essentially cost £250 per month, with not much spent outside of routine servicing. There is no way we'd be able to get a well specced XF or equivalent for £250 per month.

My wife's Fiesta cost around £11k brand new just over 4 years ago. We've covered 92k miles in that time and I'd say it's still worth £3500 at least. So effective cost is £144 per month.
I don't think we could lease an equivalent car for £144 per month on 20k+ miles per annum.

Leasing can be cheaper in some cases, but not as often as people think. Particularly if you want to add optional extras.

[Ares]

Jonno02 said:

macdeb said:

well ,being as I'm not 'glued' to the PH screen all day, everyday, it's the first time I've read such an article here and thought it makes a very valid point. You are just renting the car during it's biggest depreciation period. Salesmen must love it.

Yeah, except the finance company acquire the cars FAR cheaper than you or I ever could. Most manufacturers have their own finance arms as this means they can supply cars very cheaply without devaluing the brand.

The car I wanted last year from the best possible broker price was £1500 down and £320 a month for 8k mileage a year over 48 months. Or, I could lease it for a total of £249 a month for 10k miles over 24 months and get another brand new one after this time.

Yes, salesmen love it - and so do I!

As the post above me says, if the manufacturer doesn't support the lease on the car (m140i) it's much better to buy. Buy/lease with your heard, not your ego.

Biggest thing for the lease company is their tax position (depreciation) as well as their ability to buy cheaper.

We were offered a 140i for £237/month (ex VAT) on a 6+35. You can probably pick those up for £28k new as a cash buyer, but over 3yrs/10,000miles, will that car still be worth £17k?? Based on 3yr old 135i prices, it'll probably be about that level so leasing just brings zero risk to the prospect. For some, that's worth it.

[Ares]

topless360 said:

Ares said:

She looking at replacing it with a BMW 1-Series. She was abhorred about the prospect of not buying it outright.....until I pointed out her 2nd hand MINI had cost her £163/mth (IF she is able to get £8k for it). The brand new 1-series, worth £26k, can be hers for £178. Factor in saving £140/yr RFL, and the difference between a 2nd hand MINI and a brand new 1-series is a fiver a month.

Is there any deposit on the 1 series though? £178 strikes me as very cheap is there's no deposit due. What's the mileage allowance?

As a comparison, we bought a main dealer approved used Jaguar XF for around £19500. Now, 30 months and 23k miles later it's worth around £12k.
So it's essentially cost £250 per month, with not much spent outside of routine servicing. There is no way we'd be able to get a well specced XF or equivalent for £250 per month.

My wife's Fiesta cost around £11k brand new just over 4 years ago. We've covered 92k miles in that time and I'd say it's still worth £3500 at least. So effective cost is £144 per month.
I don't think we could lease an equivalent car for £144 per month on 20k+ miles per annum.

Leasing can be cheaper in some cases, but not as often as people think. Particularly if you want to add optional extras.

1-Series is a 6+47.

Your Jag example is flawed, you can't compare new with used. But for reference, my pal has just got into a 2yr deal on a Audi A4 for well under £200/mth.

On the fiesta, not sure what model would have been only £11k, but mega mileage is quite often where leasing doesn't work as well. You'd get in a Fiesta for under £144 for 10k/yr, but for a 20k mileage, you're right, I guess it would be £30/40 per month more.

[Fast Bug]

Ares said:

1-Series is a 6+47.

I wouldn't run a lease car outside of the warranty, so unless it's a 4 or 5 year warranty I'd stick to 3 years max

[neil1jnr]

To me, the point of a lease is to find a decent deal going that meets your criteria. No point in focusing on a particular model etc just whatever is a brilliant deal at the time.

My Fiesta 140 Ecoboost

10k miles per year

1+23 @ £135pcm
£300 admin fee.

The only other cars in that range were C1's/Citogoes/Ups etc with woefully underpowered engines.

Fancied a change from shedding in my Carisma for 15months, might go back to shedding for the winter when the lease is up in October

[Ares]

Fast Bug said:

Ares said:

1-Series is a 6+47.

I wouldn't run a lease car outside of the warranty, so unless it's a 4 or 5 year warranty I'd stick to 3 years max

Why specifically a lease car? Would you run an owned car outside of warranty?

I never go beyond 4 years personally, but don't have an issue in year 4...and have never had an issue that goodwill hasn't covered.

[nickfrog]

neil1jnr said:

To me, the point of a lease is to find a decent deal going that meets your criteria. No point in focusing on a particular model etc just whatever is a brilliant deal at the time.

My Fiesta 140 Ecoboost

10k miles per year

1+23 @ £135pcm
£300 admin fee.

Indeed Neil, at less than £150 amortised, you can't go wrong. Equally the Leon FR 1.4T at £190 amortised was a bargain too.

[nickfrog]

Ares said:

Why specifically a lease car? Would you run an owned car outside of warranty?

I never go beyond 4 years personally, but don't have an issue in year 4...and have never had an issue that goodwill hasn't covered.

I would just buy an extended warranty as if you have to spend on a big repair in the last month, you'll be a bit gutted.

[Fast Bug]

Ares said:

Fast Bug said:

Ares said:

1-Series is a 6+47.

I wouldn't run a lease car outside of the warranty, so unless it's a 4 or 5 year warranty I'd stick to 3 years max

Why specifically a lease car? Would you run an owned car outside of warranty?

I never go beyond 4 years personally, but don't have an issue in year 4...and have never had an issue that goodwill hasn't covered.

My wifes car is outside of the warranty period. However we own that outright, so if the gearbox calls it a day it's expensive and annoying, but I can carry on running the car. If I have a car that's coming towards the end of it's lease period I could be faced with a large bill and then handing the car back which would miff me greatly.

Also the savings rarely add up when you look at the additional servicing costs/tyres and MOT over a 3 year deal

[neil1jnr]

nickfrog said:

neil1jnr said:

To me, the point of a lease is to find a decent deal going that meets your criteria. No point in focusing on a particular model etc just whatever is a brilliant deal at the time.

My Fiesta 140 Ecoboost

10k miles per year

1+23 @ £135pcm
£300 admin fee.

Indeed Neil, at less than £150 amortised, you can't go wrong. Equally the Leon FR 1.4T at £190 amortised was a bargain too.

It sure is, my sister just went for a similar deal and gets her Leon delivered next week.

[talksthetorque]

Not sure where I stand on the miffed/borkage outside of warranty thing.

What is the opportunity cost of a Miff?
Would it be a smaller Miff if something borked in Month 37?
I'm guessing not, as you would just have a "Warranty only just expired" Miff, instead of a "Fix it then hand it back" Miff.
I looked in Eurocarparts and they don't sell miffs for any cars.
So what's a Miff worth to you?

[Ares]

Fast Bug said:

Ares said:

Fast Bug said:

Ares said:

1-Series is a 6+47.

I wouldn't run a lease car outside of the warranty, so unless it's a 4 or 5 year warranty I'd stick to 3 years max

Why specifically a lease car? Would you run an owned car outside of warranty?

I never go beyond 4 years personally, but don't have an issue in year 4...and have never had an issue that goodwill hasn't covered.

My wifes car is outside of the warranty period. However we own that outright, so if the gearbox calls it a day it's expensive and annoying, but I can carry on running the car. If I have a car that's coming towards the end of it's lease period I could be faced with a large bill and then handing the car back which would miff me greatly.

Also the savings rarely add up when you look at the additional servicing costs/tyres and MOT over a 3 year deal

Don't really see there is a difference. If the car needs a repair....it needs a repair? Being gutted as you are about to get rid of it could happen at any point. If it is a leased car, you would have greater clout through the leasing company to get a goodwill gesture plus some aspects would be covered by the leasing company.

[Rick1.8t]

Ares said:

Don't really see there is a difference. If the car needs a repair....it needs a repair? Being gutted as you are about to get rid of it could happen at any point. If it is a leased car, you would have greater clout through the leasing company to get a goodwill gesture plus some aspects would be covered by the leasing company.

I think there is quite a glaring difference - If you fund a costly repair on a car that you 'own' or even put 4 new tyres on some of the larger cars at around £1000 you get to decide when to move the car on and can therefore get some value out of the repair / maintainence cost.

With lease, if you had it on a 4 yr deal and something goes wrong outside of the warranty, say 2 months before the end of the lease period, plus you need new tyres, pads, say a service etc you could spend thousands of pounds to give a perfect car back only weeks later - If you 'own' the car however you can decide to keep it to get some value from the cost, of course tyres etc will wear again but its much nicer to get some use from the things you spend money on than give them away.

I have a work vehicle on lease, its on a 2 yr deal and wont need tyres, pads or any such maintainence in that period and only one fixed £199.99 service, it is also obviously under warranty for the full duration - I will get pretty much the full life out of the front tyres and pads and give it back with a fresh service, I may keep the lease rolling if it works out best to (I can have an 'informal extension' at the same monthly cost) which is ideal as I can then choose exactly when to hand it back - this will certainly be before the 3yr warranty is up.