300mph by year end?
Discussion
luckystrike said:
I wonder what the 12 year old versions of all the posters who don’t seem to care about a 300mph road car would make of their adult selves.
It’s a phenomenal speed for a non purpose-built machine and I can’t wait for it.
Perhaps you can find the time to tell us, when you've got your homework done? It’s a phenomenal speed for a non purpose-built machine and I can’t wait for it.
Equus said:
luckystrike said:
I wonder what the 12 year old versions of all the posters who don’t seem to care about a 300mph road car would make of their adult selves.
Perhaps you can find the time to tell us, when you've got your homework done?To be frank, I've been away from Pistonheads for a while, but isn't going as fast as possible* a noble aspiration?
Every vehicle I have owned or driven, one of the first things I do (within reason) is to see how fast it will go*. For example, when you rent a jetski, do you
A burble about at 15mph enjoying the fresh sea air?
B immediately open the throttle, try to hit 60mph and get air if possible by crossing each others wake?
I dearly hope it's at least close to B
Every vehicle I have owned or driven, one of the first things I do (within reason) is to see how fast it will go*. For example, when you rent a jetski, do you
A burble about at 15mph enjoying the fresh sea air?
B immediately open the throttle, try to hit 60mph and get air if possible by crossing each others wake?
I dearly hope it's at least close to B
- with the correct tyres/mechanical checks completed/on a desrestricted road or private area/no passengers/no visible hazards/ etc etc etc
TooMany2cvs said:
Because they can.
I suspect the number they'll be more interested in is 500kph = 310.7mph.
Its interesting from an engineering perspective. I suspect the number they'll be more interested in is 500kph = 310.7mph.
But pointless for a road car as you really need a track specially built to allow a car to go 300 MPH as I doubt anyone is going to let you shut down enough motorway for it. If memory serves, the VW test track in Germany has 5.5 mile long straight made just for this purpose.
The tyre technology has existed in racing for many years, the trouble is applying it to road going cars. Typically in racing situations, slick tyres have a short lifespan at those speeds due to heat & accelerated wear, not to mention the forces acting upon the tyre from an aero perspective. The tyres expand and bow due to centrifugal force, leaving a very narrow contact patch that attracts a lot of heat. In these situations though, there's much more power being put through the tyre than in the case of a Chiron, Agera R etc.
Consider the blisters visible on F1 tyres, but locate them all around the centre of the tyre in a neat ring, and you start to see how abused the tyre is at high speed.
The balance to be had with treaded tyres is providing a compound strong enough to put up with the heat and resist tread block movement, without becoming so rock solid it provides little grip at lower speeds. To address the elephant in the room, you may end up with a car that's a one trick pony. It has tyres and gearing to can help it achieve 300mph, but will be sub-optimal when used at a 'regular' race track. You'd need a set of high speed tyres and some more traditional rubber for a regular track day.
Small potatoes to owners I expect, but the car now needs more pre-run preparation than a fluid and tyre pressure check. Up until this point, tyres have been able to do everything asked of them.
Consider the blisters visible on F1 tyres, but locate them all around the centre of the tyre in a neat ring, and you start to see how abused the tyre is at high speed.
The balance to be had with treaded tyres is providing a compound strong enough to put up with the heat and resist tread block movement, without becoming so rock solid it provides little grip at lower speeds. To address the elephant in the room, you may end up with a car that's a one trick pony. It has tyres and gearing to can help it achieve 300mph, but will be sub-optimal when used at a 'regular' race track. You'd need a set of high speed tyres and some more traditional rubber for a regular track day.
Small potatoes to owners I expect, but the car now needs more pre-run preparation than a fluid and tyre pressure check. Up until this point, tyres have been able to do everything asked of them.
Vaud said:
viggyp said:
Very interesting. Will have to check the podcasts out. Cheers guys 
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opinion/sports-...https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/hall-of-fame/ha...
It's one of these two I think. Either way, they are well worth a listen. The Le Mans story in the first one is hilarious.
bqf said:
To be frank, I've been away from Pistonheads for a while, but isn't going as fast as possible* a noble aspiration?
Every vehicle I have owned or driven, one of the first things I do (within reason) is to see how fast it will go*. For example, when you rent a jetski, do you
A burble about at 15mph enjoying the fresh sea air?
B immediately open the throttle, try to hit 60mph and get air if possible by crossing each others wake?
I dearly hope it's at least close to B
The issue is relevance.Every vehicle I have owned or driven, one of the first things I do (within reason) is to see how fast it will go*. For example, when you rent a jetski, do you
A burble about at 15mph enjoying the fresh sea air?
B immediately open the throttle, try to hit 60mph and get air if possible by crossing each others wake?
I dearly hope it's at least close to B
- with the correct tyres/mechanical checks completed/on a desrestricted road or private area/no passengers/no visible hazards/ etc etc etc
99% of people on here won't ever approach 200 mph in a roadgoing vehicle, let alone 300. The jetski analogy is poor, because 60mph on one is definitely attainable by everyone. Furthermore while a 200 mph capable or near enough vehicle is something that some or many people can very realistically aspire to, even if that speed will never even be approached, not too far beyond that capability we are looking at hyper money hyper impractical vehicles, further increasing irrelevance. Who cares about 300 mph when even 200 is never used. Bit like saying that your water supply has the potential to fill up 120 baths a day when you only ever fill two. Not to forget that fun and enjoyment of a modern vehicle has incredibly little to do with its top speed capability, with even reasonably basic models having top speed potential that is well into hazardous or unusable territory. Note I say "top speed" and nothing else performance related.
It makes for interesting reading, the challenges and all that, fun and geeky perhaps, but don't expect everyone to share your excitement.
NFC 85 Vette said:
The tyre technology has existed in racing for many years, the trouble is applying it to road going cars. Typically in racing situations, slick tyres have a short lifespan at those speeds due to heat & accelerated wear, not to mention the forces acting upon the tyre from an aero perspective. The tyres expand and bow due to centrifugal force, leaving a very narrow contact patch that attracts a lot of heat. In these situations though, there's much more power being put through the tyre than in the case of a Chiron, Agera R etc.
Consider the blisters visible on F1 tyres, but locate them all around the centre of the tyre in a neat ring, and you start to see how abused the tyre is at high speed.
The balance to be had with treaded tyres is providing a compound strong enough to put up with the heat and resist tread block movement, without becoming so rock solid it provides little grip at lower speeds. To address the elephant in the room, you may end up with a car that's a one trick pony. It has tyres and gearing to can help it achieve 300mph, but will be sub-optimal when used at a 'regular' race track. You'd need a set of high speed tyres and some more traditional rubber for a regular track day.
Small potatoes to owners I expect, but the car now needs more pre-run preparation than a fluid and tyre pressure check. Up until this point, tyres have been able to do everything asked of them.
If I recall correctly, Le Mans cars used cross ply tyres until surprisingly late, as they were the only ones that could take the higher energy of 230mph+ ?Consider the blisters visible on F1 tyres, but locate them all around the centre of the tyre in a neat ring, and you start to see how abused the tyre is at high speed.
The balance to be had with treaded tyres is providing a compound strong enough to put up with the heat and resist tread block movement, without becoming so rock solid it provides little grip at lower speeds. To address the elephant in the room, you may end up with a car that's a one trick pony. It has tyres and gearing to can help it achieve 300mph, but will be sub-optimal when used at a 'regular' race track. You'd need a set of high speed tyres and some more traditional rubber for a regular track day.
Small potatoes to owners I expect, but the car now needs more pre-run preparation than a fluid and tyre pressure check. Up until this point, tyres have been able to do everything asked of them.
From an engineering standpoint it's no doubt a fun thing to do but will have zero relevance to road car development. Some commentators on this subject believe that an EV stands a better chance of reaching this as there's far less drag on an EV due to the minimal cooling required requires Vs an ICE powered car. Should be interesting...
Gameface said:
Equus said:
luckystrike said:
I wonder what the 12 year old versions of all the posters who don’t seem to care about a 300mph road car would make of their adult selves.
Perhaps you can find the time to tell us, when you've got your homework done?
300mph is an amazing figure for a road-legal car. I can't believe anyone reading these pages doesn't get a tingle at the idea that it is now (almost) possible to buy a (bloody expensive) car that will do this speed, when in our lifetimes it wasn't possible to buy that one did 200mph (even less for those older than I).
Yes, irrelevant, expensive, won't ever be driven at that speed, can't legally do it etc - but "because they could"!
Vaud said:
If I recall correctly, Le Mans cars used cross ply tyres until surprisingly late, as they were the only ones that could take the higher energy of 230mph+ ?
Certainly up until relatively recent years, cross ply tyres were used for their overall rigidity (side wall strength in particular). Le Mans is a one of a kind challenge for tyres in that it has long, high speed straights, but also long, high speed corners. AFAIK, most racing slicks in circuit racing are now radial, as they provide better peak grip, but have lower slip angles than equivalent cross plys, so they provide more grip to a point, but when you lean on the sidewall, it tends to give way, and fold over in extreme cases. With the increase in aero grip in F1 and WEC, it's less of an issue and helps resist the car wanting to crab sideways and bunny hop when the tyre's loaded up laterally. Back in the 80's on cross plys, you could drift an F1 car like Gilles and produce some wonderful photo opportunities
.In high speed straight line applications like drag racing, you accept the trade off with a soft side wall because it allows it to wind up like a coiled spring at launch, but means somewhat ponderous handling at high speed (think of it as a plate of jelly where the jelly is stuck to the plate, but can wobble from side to side freely). In the event of the car coming loose, the tyre will squat, rebound and quite easily get into a bounce. At that end of the spectrum, the tyre has a very thin sidewall deliberately, because it's only designed for straight line use - so more peak grip, but a handful when it gets out of the groove and starts move laterally within itself.
In terms of this exercise and relevance to road cars, tyre technology will benefit, but again, only at the end of the spectrum rarely visited by us mere mortals. I'm not as clued up on motorbike tyre technology, but I recall that compounds are now almost hybrid in nature where the tyre's centre compound is different to the outer edges. That's the type of design that would find its way into a radial tyre that you want to use for very high speeds, but also be able to lean on it laterally.
NFC 85 Vette said:
Certainly up until relatively recent years, cross ply tyres were used for their overall rigidity (side wall strength in particular). Le Mans is a one of a kind challenge for tyres in that it has long, high speed straights, but also long, high speed corners. AFAIK, most racing slicks in circuit racing are now radial, as they provide better peak grip, but have lower slip angles than equivalent cross plys, so they provide more grip to a point, but when you lean on the sidewall, it tends to give way, and fold over in extreme cases.
With the increase in aero grip in F1 and WEC, it's less of an issue and helps resist the car wanting to crab sideways and bunny hop when the tyre's loaded up laterally. Back in the 80's on cross plys, you could drift an F1 car like Gilles and produce some wonderful photo opportunities.
In high speed straight line applications like drag racing, you accept the trade off with a soft side wall because it allows it to wind up like a coiled spring at launch, but means somewhat ponderous handling at high speed (think of it as a plate of jelly where the jelly is stuck to the plate, but can wobble from side to side freely). In the event of the car coming loose, the tyre will squat, rebound and quite easily get into a bounce. At that end of the spectrum, the tyre has a very thin sidewall deliberately, because it's only designed for straight line use - so more peak grip, but a handful when it gets out of the groove and starts move laterally within itself.
In terms of this exercise and relevance to road cars, tyre technology will benefit, but again, only at the end of the spectrum rarely visited by us mere mortals. I'm not as clued up on motorbike tyre technology, but I recall that compounds are now almost hybrid in nature where the tyre's centre compound is different to the outer edges. That's the type of design that would find its way into a radial tyre that you want to use for very high speeds, but also be able to lean on it laterally.
Thank you for the constructive and detailed explanation. And that I wasn't imagining things!With the increase in aero grip in F1 and WEC, it's less of an issue and helps resist the car wanting to crab sideways and bunny hop when the tyre's loaded up laterally. Back in the 80's on cross plys, you could drift an F1 car like Gilles and produce some wonderful photo opportunities
.In high speed straight line applications like drag racing, you accept the trade off with a soft side wall because it allows it to wind up like a coiled spring at launch, but means somewhat ponderous handling at high speed (think of it as a plate of jelly where the jelly is stuck to the plate, but can wobble from side to side freely). In the event of the car coming loose, the tyre will squat, rebound and quite easily get into a bounce. At that end of the spectrum, the tyre has a very thin sidewall deliberately, because it's only designed for straight line use - so more peak grip, but a handful when it gets out of the groove and starts move laterally within itself.
In terms of this exercise and relevance to road cars, tyre technology will benefit, but again, only at the end of the spectrum rarely visited by us mere mortals. I'm not as clued up on motorbike tyre technology, but I recall that compounds are now almost hybrid in nature where the tyre's centre compound is different to the outer edges. That's the type of design that would find its way into a radial tyre that you want to use for very high speeds, but also be able to lean on it laterally.
I've read of stock-bodied cars exceeding 300mph (the Kugel & LeFevers Pontiac Firebird springs to mind, in '99), so I'm sure they'll get there. After all, they're in striking distance now. A bit more power, taller gearing, a little less drag, a suitably enthusiastic driver...
After all, the M2K Motorsports Ford GT hit 294mph in a standing mile – and that was a relatively sane (powertrain aside) street-legal machine.
After all, the M2K Motorsports Ford GT hit 294mph in a standing mile – and that was a relatively sane (powertrain aside) street-legal machine.
Lewis Kingston said:
I've read of stock-bodied cars exceeding 300mph (the Kugel & LeFevers Pontiac Firebird springs to mind, in '99), so I'm sure they'll get there. After all, they're in striking distance now. A bit more power, taller gearing, a little less drag, a suitably enthusiastic driver...
After all, the M2K Motorsports Ford GT hit 294mph in a standing mile – and that was a relatively sane (powertrain aside) street-legal machine.
In the case of the Kugel & LeFevers car, I thought that was running on front runners all around, similar to those I use on the Corvette (Mickey Thompson, Hoosier, Goodyear, they're all similar). They're speed rated to ~350mph but aren't great road tyres. They're similar to a space saver tyre in terms of section width, but without the 50/80mph advised limit After all, the M2K Motorsports Ford GT hit 294mph in a standing mile – and that was a relatively sane (powertrain aside) street-legal machine.
98elise said:
DoubleD said:
Plug Life said:
AmosMoses said:
Will we see this by the end of 2018? I bloody hope so!
Why?Its a fun story in a world of many horrible stories. For that I salute them.
996TT02 said:
bqf said:
To be frank, I've been away from Pistonheads for a while, but isn't going as fast as possible* a noble aspiration?
Every vehicle I have owned or driven, one of the first things I do (within reason) is to see how fast it will go*. For example, when you rent a jetski, do you
A burble about at 15mph enjoying the fresh sea air?
B immediately open the throttle, try to hit 60mph and get air if possible by crossing each others wake?
I dearly hope it's at least close to B
The issue is relevance.Every vehicle I have owned or driven, one of the first things I do (within reason) is to see how fast it will go*. For example, when you rent a jetski, do you
A burble about at 15mph enjoying the fresh sea air?
B immediately open the throttle, try to hit 60mph and get air if possible by crossing each others wake?
I dearly hope it's at least close to B
- with the correct tyres/mechanical checks completed/on a desrestricted road or private area/no passengers/no visible hazards/ etc etc etc
99% of people on here won't ever approach 200 mph in a roadgoing vehicle, let alone 300. The jetski analogy is poor, because 60mph on one is definitely attainable by everyone. Furthermore while a 200 mph capable or near enough vehicle is something that some or many people can very realistically aspire to, even if that speed will never even be approached, not too far beyond that capability we are looking at hyper money hyper impractical vehicles, further increasing irrelevance. Who cares about 300 mph when even 200 is never used. Bit like saying that your water supply has the potential to fill up 120 baths a day when you only ever fill two. Not to forget that fun and enjoyment of a modern vehicle has incredibly little to do with its top speed capability, with even reasonably basic models having top speed potential that is well into hazardous or unusable territory. Note I say "top speed" and nothing else performance related.
It makes for interesting reading, the challenges and all that, fun and geeky perhaps, but don't expect everyone to share your excitement.
"Yes well I can seat 5 in extreme comfort level of 9.257, or we could try ride quality at an astounding 8.76"
I definitely don't share the cynicism on this one. I love to see engineering boundaries being broken and records set. I'd happily sit and watch an hour's documentary on the tallest suspension bridge in the world, or even buy a book on it, without ever intending to use it or even visit - that's just cause I like that sort of thing. I've got multiple books and films on the Apollo programme for the same reason. I'm the same about supercars; I'll never be able to afford one, I'll probably never even drive one, and I suspect I'd have more fun in a Caterham, but I still think supercars are marvellous and am quite excited to see who gets to 300mph first
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