The government have won. Selling my diesel for a petrol.....

[Harji]

Ive been driving to work - 90 mile round trip- in my classic SAAB 900 Turbo, so I'm doing my bit. But thought I could do more so added a 2006 2.7 A6 TDI SE Avant, which isn't going to give me much better mpg I think.

[ianreeves]

I too have sold my oil burner. Gone is my 55mpg Nissan.

I do a 70 mile trip each day so felt only a Golf R would do. Mainly because I couldn’t afford an M3

[Ninja59]

liner33 said:

I dont believe that is true at least not according to sources I have read. I have read that diesel particulates whilst similar to petrol are still higher, the limits on PM for petrol and diesel engines are set the same for EU6 at 0.005g/km

Nano particulate emissions rise dramatically during DPF regneration cycles according to some studies and can exceed these set limits

Decide what you want but plenty of studies have found that particulate emissions from DI petrols are high.

A DPF will only capture down to a specific level so yes some of the very smallest wont be captured at any stage. Just like the limitations of any GPF. Regarding regeneration depending on setup that will apply to a GPF as well (although less often).

But to be solely biased and blase to say that petrols are "cleaner" is debateable when the biggest issue in particulates is also being caused by modern petrols. I wont debate over the NO2 issue as that is a diesel specific problem.

[MrGTI6]

I replaced my diesel car with a petrol one last year. Nothing to do with all the propaganda, I simply wanted a change and the petrol car came up fairly local and I liked it.

If I had to do lots of miles I would definitely get a diesel again. I love my petrol car and it's so much faster than the diesel, but the difference between the two is over 20mpg!

[Lester H]

Like most of you on here, I love the way good petrols rev (and near silent tickover) I understand the well rehearsed real world diesel torque argument, too,with
examples of both in our family.However, the diesel mpg advantage is still very very tempting.

[Tim bo]

Well I'm not a sinner by ever actually buying a stheap diesel.

Never owning a stheap diesel doesn't go far enough I realise, particularly after reading this thread, so to make up for it I'm doubling my cylinder count by trading in my four-pot Porsche 718 CS and have a V8 C63 AMG Coupé on order.

[DanielSan]

I had a 206 HDI 12 years ago, I replaced that with a Civic Type R, Astra VXR, Integra Type R, S2000, Impreza STI, Megane R26, Civic Type R, BMW 330 and now an E46 M3.

I’ve been doing my bit long before you all jumped on the band wagon because the government told you to.

[liner33]

Ninja59 said:

Decide what you want but plenty of studies have found that particulate emissions from DI petrols are high.

A DPF will only capture down to a specific level so yes some of the very smallest wont be captured at any stage. Just like the limitations of any GPF. Regarding regeneration depending on setup that will apply to a GPF as well (although less often).

But to be solely biased and blase to say that petrols are "cleaner" is debateable when the biggest issue in particulates is also being caused by modern petrols. I wont debate over the NO2 issue as that is a diesel specific problem.

Then show me the studies , just be careful that they arent ones funded by and carried out by employees of diesel engine manufacturers

[heebeegeetee]

liner33 said:

Then show me the studies , just be careful that they arent ones funded by and carried out by employees of diesel engine manufacturers

Well they're easily googled, but it's now being realised that di petrols also need particulate filters. https://www.transportenvironment.org/publications/...

Also though, DI petrol engines coke their valves up, significantly so by as early as 50k miles. I'm sure that all the fuel and emissions figures of engines are produced with new engines, but what are they doing in the real world once they're just a few years old?
http://lohen.co.uk/shop/gen-2-mini/engine-ecu/engi...

If petrol engines are 20-50% worse on fuel, think of how many more hgv/tanker journeys have to be made by trucks with heavy hgv engines.

[liner33]

heebeegeetee said:

Well they're easily googled, but it's now being realised that di petrols also need particulate filters. https://www.transportenvironment.org/publications/...

Yes petrol engines do produce particulates , that article* (Not study) refers to the EU6 legislation where as I said both petrol and diesel engines have the same particulate limits , What I would like to see is studies were petrol engines have been shown to produce more particulates than diesel engines

• also refers to nano or "ultrafine" particulates which are highly damaging and that particulate filters are not effective at reducing

[Terzo123]

I sadly succumbed also.

On Monday I traded in my old diesel 3.0 CRD Jeep Grande Cherokee for a C63 AMG.

[swisstoni]

I planted a tree last year.

[Andy-SP2]

BT have one of the largest vehicle fleets in the country so pleased to see that they are looking to move away from diesels in the future... https://www.ft.com/content/2a1ee496-94be-11e7-bdfa...

I wonder if 'white van person' will ever be persuaded

[Ninja59]

liner33 said:

Then show me the studies , just be careful that they arent ones funded by and carried out by employees of diesel engine manufacturers

Show me your sources then which show that DI petrols are lower than a DPF diesel, nearly all of the studies have silenced out the fact that petrols are not producing particulates when utilising DI and most were shown to be at a conventional diesel level.

Granted one of the studies I found was Euro 5 (the most recent when it was produced), but this statement is rather damning...

"Direct injection gasoline vehicles are consistently found to emit very high number of particles,
with the actual emission levels even approaching those of conventional diesels in some cases
(i.e. G-DI_E5_L)."

By "conventional" diesel they mean one without a DPF.

http://publications.jrc.ec.europa.eu/repository/bi...

ADAC back in 2011...

"A look at the particle number shows that the tested direct-injection petrol vehicles emit considerably
more particles than the diesel engines and port fuel injection petrol vehicles they
were compared with and do not comply with the mandatory limit of 6.0*1011/km (Euro 5b,
Euro 6b) for diesel vehicles. The measured values usually exceeded this limit by a factor of 1
to 10 (see Figure 2). "

https://circabc.europa.eu/webdav/CircaBC/GROW/auto...

[heebeegeetee]

liner33 said:

Yes petrol engines do produce particulates , that article* (Not study) refers to the EU6 legislation where as I said both petrol and diesel engines have the same particulate limits , What I would like to see is studies were petrol engines have been shown to produce more particulates than diesel engines

Nobody has said they do, afaiaa.

What do you mean by more though? More weight, more numerically? I've always understood that the particulates that petrols produce are lighter and smaller, thus remain airborne longer and penetrate the lungs more deeply, and now gdi engines are producing more of them than previous petrols (and have also now reintroduced the need for decoking, something thought to have dissappeared decades ago).

Personally I don't think there's much point in worrying about which is worse, there are much bigger influences at play . Europe has been using diesels far more than us (this issue has little to do with British governments) and their health and longevity is as good as anywhere in the world.

[liner33]

Ninja59 said:

Show me your sources then which show that DI petrols are lower than a DPF diesel, nearly all of the studies have silenced out the fact that petrols are not producing particulates when utilising DI and most were shown to be at a conventional diesel level.

Granted one of the studies I found was Euro 5 (the most recent when it was produced), but this statement is rather damning...

"Direct injection gasoline vehicles are consistently found to emit very high number of particles,
with the actual emission levels even approaching those of conventional diesels in some cases
(i.e. G-DI_E5_L)."

By "conventional" diesel they mean one without a DPF.

http://publications.jrc.ec.europa.eu/repository/bi...

ADAC back in 2011...

"A look at the particle number shows that the tested direct-injection petrol vehicles emit considerably
more particles than the diesel engines and port fuel injection petrol vehicles they
were compared with and do not comply with the mandatory limit of 6.0*1011/km (Euro 5b,
Euro 6b) for diesel vehicles. The measured values usually exceeded this limit by a factor of 1
to 10 (see Figure 2). "

https://circabc.europa.eu/webdav/CircaBC/GROW/auto...

You made this statement "Particulates from DI petrols are much higher than a modern DPF equipped diesel"

The limits of PM on EU5 and EU6 for petrol and diesel engines are the same, that's a fact


Those articles whilst interesting are a little dated and relate largely to EU5 standards, the first is essentially saying that under a non regulated test the pm emissions can be much higher than permitted on some older EU5 di engines, I have seen the same statements made with diesel engines. Its well reported that during dpf regeneration cycles that both nox and particulates from diesel can exceed the set limits by many times, but for EU testing purposes they do not measure during dpf regeneration, so if the limits are the same, how on earth can petrol engines pm emissions be higher ?

[heebeegeetee]

Meanwhile, apparently the best new car on the market is a diesel.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/cars/article-5303...

[IforB]

Diseasel is not a fuel for fun. It has its purpose, but big, heavy engine blocks and massively complex guff around it, do not leand themselves to hurling a car about with abandon.

Revvy, lighterweight petrol power will always be more fun, as long as the car it is attached to is also light and fun.

Both still produce nasty nonsense out the back and arguing which is worse is like arguing whether a headbutt or punch in the face is worse. They are both bad in reality.

We will end up with Electric cars soon enough, so we may as well enjoy the petrol versions whilst we still can. Electric has the potential to be good, but it'll be so different that most of us will hate it with a passion as we are so ingrained with I.C engines for fun purposes, so losing the noise and the need to work them in a certain way to get the best out, will mean we'll never truly get it.

Future generations will look on us as idiots as they waft around in silence and with instant torque and power. We will look on them and shake our heads as they know not what they have missed.

It has always been this way with new tech and always will be.

[Nickbrapp]

Wacky Racer said:

What a ridiculous thread.

I bet none of you ever go over 50 on the motorway to conserve the environment.....

We were told several years ago that diesels were better than nasty petrol cars......

Roll on 2040

What will 2040 bring? Loads of petrol and diesel models running on battery around the city centre for 8 miles?

[xjay1337]

IforB said:

Diseasel is not a fuel for fun. It has its purpose, but big, heavy engine blocks and massively complex guff around it, do not leand themselves to hurling a car about with abandon.

I enjoy my diesel track car thank you very much. ;-)