RE: Porsche 911 (991.2) GT3 vs. 911 (997.2) GT3
Discussion
browngt3 said:
What you say is logical, however, I disagree with this
'Hardly anybody really cares about the actual experience of NA'
In my opinion most buyers of Porsche GT cars do care about the NA experience. It's one of the key reasons we buy them. Porsche are masters at creating niche models. If people only wanted turbo 911s then they have the rest of the range to choose from.
The biggest threat to future NA GT cars will be, as you say, legislation and therefore we may see a hybrid version. Not sure how they'll deal with the weight issue though.
You made the point in your excellent earlier post that these cars offer a traditional driving approach combined with modern tech. This is the essence of GT and for this reason Porsche will not build a turbo (or even hybrid) GT3 until they have to, imo of course.
Be interesting to see how it all turns out. In the meantime we have some truly outstanding drivers cars to enjoy!
Also I think there's room for NA engine in the GT lineup, regardless where the rest of the world and Porsche itself goes. I mean why not have atleast one model dedicated to hedonism and enjoyment? The RS or GT2 models can be the ultimate performance & number machines for the serious people. 'Hardly anybody really cares about the actual experience of NA'
In my opinion most buyers of Porsche GT cars do care about the NA experience. It's one of the key reasons we buy them. Porsche are masters at creating niche models. If people only wanted turbo 911s then they have the rest of the range to choose from.
The biggest threat to future NA GT cars will be, as you say, legislation and therefore we may see a hybrid version. Not sure how they'll deal with the weight issue though.
You made the point in your excellent earlier post that these cars offer a traditional driving approach combined with modern tech. This is the essence of GT and for this reason Porsche will not build a turbo (or even hybrid) GT3 until they have to, imo of course.
Be interesting to see how it all turns out. In the meantime we have some truly outstanding drivers cars to enjoy!
For rest of us it's good for Porsche to keep the dream alive that we might one day have the means to get manual NA 911 GT car.
JualMassFlywheel said:
nickfrog said:
I reckon NA and manual is a personal preference rather than a sign that a car is more or less of a driver's car.
Well said. And while we're at it perhaps we should define 'driver'? I enjoy different cars for different reasons and I am definately a driving enthusiast.
Loyly said:
Turbobanana said:
"Porsche 911 (991.2) GT3 vs. 911 (997.2) GT3" - what a rubbish headline.
Conclusive proof that cars need names, not numbers.
No it isn't. Are you dyslexic?Conclusive proof that cars need names, not numbers.
3yardy3 said:
£81,000 for the older one as new... £130,000 for the new one.... is it me or is 50k is a lot of money for an updated version of the same model???
Firstly, I'm pretty sure the £82k is without options, so you should really compare £82k to £110k. Secondly.....inflation and a weak £ against the Euro.... Doesn't seem other-worldly.E65Ross said:
3yardy3 said:
£81,000 for the older one as new... £130,000 for the new one.... is it me or is 50k is a lot of money for an updated version of the same model???
Firstly, I'm pretty sure the £82k is without options, so you should really compare £82k to £110k. Secondly.....inflation and a weak £ against the Euro.... Doesn't seem other-worldly.Loyly said:
Turbobanana said:
"Porsche 911 (991.2) GT3 vs. 911 (997.2) GT3" - what a rubbish headline.
Conclusive proof that cars need names, not numbers.
No it isn't. Are you dyslexic?Conclusive proof that cars need names, not numbers.
German naming conventions amuse me though:
BMW - the bigger the first number, the bigger the car. The remaining two numbers tell you what engine size it has. Except they don't.
Audi - a letter, reflecting the type of car, followed by a number to tell you how big it is. That makes sense, even if it is a bit clinical.
Mercedes - a letter, again, followed by a number that may (or may not) denote the engine size.
Volkswagen - yep, names.
Porsche - 3-digit type numbers beginning with 9: a very short-sighted policy as it limits you to 99 models Oh, wait - we can start them with 7 instead!
It's not just the Germans: Citroen's is simpler (C1, C4 etc). Peugeot's 3-digit model names ran out so they started using 4. "Peugeot fivethousandandeight" doesn't exactly slip off the tongue like "Renault Clio", "Ferrari Testarossa" or "Ford Galaxy" to pick three diverse vehicles.
Perhaps Sir or Madam would prefer a VAZ 2104?
Turbobanana said:
Perhaps I am, as I don't know what you mean.
German naming conventions amuse me though:
BMW - the bigger the first number, the bigger the car. The remaining two numbers tell you what engine size it has. Except they don't.
This has never been the case. The numbers are more related to engine power, the numbers generally reflect what power it puts out in relation to a typical NA engine (e.g. M140i puts out roughly what a typical 4.0 engine would put out.German naming conventions amuse me though:
BMW - the bigger the first number, the bigger the car. The remaining two numbers tell you what engine size it has. Except they don't.
People seem to think that the numbers have, in the past, always been directly related to engine size. I once had an E21 316....which had a 1.8 litre engine. Back in the late 70's (or 80's....I forget) they made a turbocharged 745i, which had a 3.2 litre turbocharged straight 6.
People on PH always say that BMW numbering convention used to be so simple etc.....but they are generally no different these days....it just seems that way, because they are now all turbocharged engines.
Turbobanana said:
It's not just the Germans: Citroen's is simpler (C1, C4 etc). Peugeot's 3-digit model names ran out so they started using 4. "Peugeot fivethousandandeight" doesn't exactly slip off the tongue like "Renault Clio", "Ferrari Testarossa" or "Ford Galaxy" to pick three diverse vehicles.
I think the move to alphanumeric by a lot of manufacturers is simply to make them more easily transferable across many different countries and languages without having to worry about 'interesting' connotations (we all know a good one - my fav is how MR2 sort of translates into French..)I'm less worried about cars being manual now DCT's are so good but I would absolutely hate to lose the naturally aspirated engine to turbo power.
Supercars need super fast gearboxes and a big naturally aspirated engine IMHO.
Give me a Lamborghini Huracan Performante anyday. Best supercar out there right now and possibly ever given gen II maybe a hybrid
Supercars need super fast gearboxes and a big naturally aspirated engine IMHO.
Give me a Lamborghini Huracan Performante anyday. Best supercar out there right now and possibly ever given gen II maybe a hybrid
gofasterrosssco said:
I think the move to alphanumeric by a lot of manufacturers is simply to make them more easily transferable across many different countries and languages without having to worry about 'interesting' connotations (we all know a good one - my fav is how MR2 sort of translates into French..)
Monsieur Deux?PhantomPH said:
I’d kill for a 991.2 GT3. Genuinely in love with those things.
What strikes me about this article, is just how much smaller the 997 looks next to the 991. Especially in the rear shot.
A few years ago at a Sunday Service I remember seeing a 996 and 997 quite close together, the 996 looked tiny by comparison.What strikes me about this article, is just how much smaller the 997 looks next to the 991. Especially in the rear shot.
3yardy3 said:
£81,000 for the older one as new... £130,000 for the new one.... is it me or is 50k is a lot of money for an updated version of the same model???
The information given isn't strictly accurate. The release prices have been:
997.2 GT3 in 2009 £80,884 with VAT at 15%
991.2 GT3 in 2013 £98,134 inc VAT at 20%
991.2 GT3 in 2017 £111,802 inc VAT at 20%.
If the 997.2 GT3 was taxed at 20%, the base price would have been £84,400 so that helps close down the differential. Therefore the increase between each generation is less than £14k. However, the difference in cost price vs base price has increased considerably due to the options list.
In summary, the £81k price given for the old car was the base price with VAT at 15% and the £130k price for the 991.2 GT3 is with VAT at 20% and circa £20k worth of options. I believe Porsche is very responsible when it comes to price increases from one generation to the next. That's especially so when you consider that Porsche has maintained limited price increments from one generation to the next despite the premiums recent GT cars are commanding.
Edited by Sierra Mike on Tuesday 13th February 00:08
E65Ross said:
Turbobanana said:
Perhaps I am, as I don't know what you mean.
German naming conventions amuse me though:
BMW - the bigger the first number, the bigger the car. The remaining two numbers tell you what engine size it has. Except they don't.
People seem to think that the numbers have, in the past, always been directly related to engine size. I once had an E21 316....which had a 1.8 litre engine. Back in the late 70's (or 80's....I forget) they made a turbocharged 745i, which had a 3.2 litre turbocharged straight 6.German naming conventions amuse me though:
BMW - the bigger the first number, the bigger the car. The remaining two numbers tell you what engine size it has. Except they don't.
Anyway, enough thread hijacking: I'd be happy with either a 991.2 or a 997.2 but if I had this sort of disposable income I'd probably blow it either on an older, "proper" 911 (ie, an air-cooled one) or a Ferrari - most of which are also unromantically numbered rather than named (Mondial and Testarossa aside).
chris116 said:
PhantomPH said:
I’d kill for a 991.2 GT3. Genuinely in love with those things.
What strikes me about this article, is just how much smaller the 997 looks next to the 991. Especially in the rear shot.
A few years ago at a Sunday Service I remember seeing a 996 and 997 quite close together, the 996 looked tiny by comparison.What strikes me about this article, is just how much smaller the 997 looks next to the 991. Especially in the rear shot.
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