V8 INTO A CORTINA FUTURE DVLA / MOT PROBLEMS

[LeighW]

My mate is currently building a hot rod, shoe horning a supercharged Daimler V8 into a 1937 Ford Model Y. He's going to have issues (if he ever finishes it).

[aeropilot]

Todd Bonzalez said:

I put an LS3 in my E46 and have had absolutely zero issues.

Well, to be fair, the rest of a E46 is much more able to deal with a LS than the left-overs of a MK3 'tina can cope with a 318 Mopar......so hardly a comparable situation.

[PAUL500]

aeropilot said:

gareth_r said:

PAUL500 said:

Go down the kit converted route instead of the radically altered process and you can keep an age related plate and modify the existing chassis, with no IVA required. As pointed out to me by Equus on here recently.

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/kitconvert...

That page says: "The general appearance of the vehicle will change because of the kit.". That won't apply to an engine change.

Is it intended for a new body on a vehicle that has a separate chassis?

Not as such.

The kit rules are on the basis, of you take a rusty old Mini, Escort, Jag etc., and strip out the mechanicals/running gear, throw away the shell, and insert all the running gear etc into a new plastic body/and or separate chassis provided by the kit manufacturer.

It does say in the blurb you can modify the existing chassis, and there is no definition of what is a kit, this could just be a kit of mechanical parts.

The car has to meet type approval rules, but if you follow the link related to such it confirms that a car over 10 years old is exempt.

[TooMany2cvs]

PAUL500 said:

It does say in the blurb you can modify the existing chassis...

Many kits based on chassised cars need the chassis trimming in minor ways - Herald-based kits used to remove the outriggers, Beetle-based kits used to shorten the kipper, three-wheeler 2cv-based kits lost the rear legs.

[OverSteery]

Todd Bonzalez said:

I put an LS3 in my E46 and have had absolutely zero issues. Plenty of people do it. I MOT'd and insured it again last week with no problems.

And people exceed the speed limit whilst using their mobile phones all the time with zero issues. It doesn't mean that other don't get caught and into trouble .

[shakotan]

PAUL500 said:

aeropilot said:

gareth_r said:

PAUL500 said:

Go down the kit converted route instead of the radically altered process and you can keep an age related plate and modify the existing chassis, with no IVA required. As pointed out to me by Equus on here recently.

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/kitconvert...

That page says: "The general appearance of the vehicle will change because of the kit.". That won't apply to an engine change.

Is it intended for a new body on a vehicle that has a separate chassis?

Not as such.

The kit rules are on the basis, of you take a rusty old Mini, Escort, Jag etc., and strip out the mechanicals/running gear, throw away the shell, and insert all the running gear etc into a new plastic body/and or separate chassis provided by the kit manufacturer.

It does say in the blurb you can modify the existing chassis, and there is no definition of what is a kit, this could just be a kit of mechanical parts.

The car has to meet type approval rules, but if you follow the link related to such it confirms that a car over 10 years old is exempt.

The kit of part HAS to be already Type Approved. You cannot just assemble a bunch of parts yourself, throw them at a car and then claim Kit Built Rules.

Kit Built Rules cover the like of Kit Car manufacturers like Lotus 7 copies, or kits to convert existing cars. The finished vehicle is submitted for Type Approval by the manufacturer, and once Type Approval is granted, they can sell that kit to the general public, and they can Kit Convert or Kit Build the finished vehicle without needing an IVA.

In your circumstance, using an Alfa 155 body and assembling a kit of parts to build a DTM replica, you fall into the Amateur Build category. If your vehicle fails to comply with the 8-point rule, it loses its VRM and becomes a 'new build' car, therefore the 10-year exemption does not apply.

Edited by shakotan on Friday 16th February 15:03

[InitialDave]

OverSteery said:

And people exceed the speed limit whilst using their mobile phones all the time with zero issues. It doesn't mean that other don't get caught and into trouble .

But those things are illegal. A different engine in an E46 is not.

As long as he didn't mess about with the structure of it, he's not really getting away with anything he shouldn't.

[PAUL500]

shakotan said:

PAUL500 said:

aeropilot said:

gareth_r said:

PAUL500 said:

Go down the kit converted route instead of the radically altered process and you can keep an age related plate and modify the existing chassis, with no IVA required. As pointed out to me by Equus on here recently.

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/kitconvert...

That page says: "The general appearance of the vehicle will change because of the kit.". That won't apply to an engine change.

Is it intended for a new body on a vehicle that has a separate chassis?

Not as such.

The kit rules are on the basis, of you take a rusty old Mini, Escort, Jag etc., and strip out the mechanicals/running gear, throw away the shell, and insert all the running gear etc into a new plastic body/and or separate chassis provided by the kit manufacturer.

It does say in the blurb you can modify the existing chassis, and there is no definition of what is a kit, this could just be a kit of mechanical parts.

The car has to meet type approval rules, but if you follow the link related to such it confirms that a car over 10 years old is exempt.

The kit of part HAS to be already Type Approved. You cannot just assemble a bunch of parts yourself, throw them at a car and then claim Kit Built Rules.

Kit Built Rules cover the like of Kit Car manufacturers like Lotus 7 copies, or kits to convert existing cars. The finished vehicle is submitted for Type Approval by the manufacturer, and once Type Approval is granted, they can sell that kit to the general public, and they can Kit Convert or Kit Build the finished vehicle without needing an IVA.

In your circumstance, using an Alfa 155 body and assembling a kit of parts to build a DTM replica, you fall into the Amateur Build category. If your vehicle fails to comply with the 8-point rule, it loses its VRM and becomes a 'new build' car, therefore the 10-year exemption does not apply.

Edited by shakotan on Friday 16th February 15:03

You are quoting the kit built rules, I am quoting the kit converted rules. They are different. No where in the description of such are the restrictions you list, read the link and follow the additional links relating to type approval.

I was not aware of this kit converted status until it was brought up by Equus.

[shakotan]

You're wrong, Kit Converted and Kit built fall under the same scope. The kit you use for conversion MUST be Type Approved to avoid IVA unless it doesn't result in the failure to meet the 8-point rule, thereby retaining the original ID.

If a non-Type Approved kit means you cut the shell/chassis, it's IVA time, without a shadow of a doubt.

[randomeddy]

I always remember reading a story about a guy that had built a Ford pop', put a big V8 in it.

The DVLA sent the V5 change of details back questioning the size of the engine after he had put something like 6750 cc.

He sent it back saying, yes, that is correct.

[gareth_r]

If this goes through, the Mopar V8 will not pass BIVA anyway >>>> http://www.rodsnsods.co.uk/forum/licensing-legal-s...
(Licensing and Legal section >> "More heavy ****" thread)

Kapri on the Rods 'n' Sods Forum on 6 Feb 18 said:

DfT have a consulation open which they are hoping will slide by unnoticed.

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/road-v...

The important section is number 4, where they intend to make all vehicles using BIVA meet modern emissions spec - i.e. cats and injection required to stand a chance.

The EU hasn't asked for it, the test isn't accepted in any EU country anyway, so this is purely a home market initiative.

Now the real sneaky bit, the consulation opened 3 days ago and will close in less than 4 weeks. The rules will come into effect in JULY 2018!!

So if just starting / almost finishing a car for BIVA build they have added £3000- £6000 to the cost of complying.

Not going to affect you? Then what about others, like anyone caught with a non 8 point car sent for BIVA? Might as well crush it and be done, especially at the lower end of the market where costs vs benefit simply don't stack up.

I'm currently liaising with NSRA and VERY shortly we'll producing a reply for others to be able to use.

Ideally we want this stopped, however, buying time for a FULL consultation would be better. For that we'll need MPs, plus Minister for Transport and DfT, to realise the depth of feeling and far reaching effects.

Don't care? Then please don't bother commenting as we don't have time to do the same old arguements about using BIVA. This will effectively stop the only legal way of building.

Edited by gareth_r on Saturday 17th February 15:23

[PAUL500]

shakotan said:

You're wrong, Kit Converted and Kit built fall under the same scope. The kit you use for conversion MUST be Type Approved to avoid IVA unless it doesn't result in the failure to meet the 8-point rule, thereby retaining the original ID.

If a non-Type Approved kit means you cut the shell/chassis, it's IVA time, without a shadow of a doubt.

If that is the case then why have two different criteria rather than one covering both?

Can you name a kit of parts that is type approved that allows a third party to then modify a chassis independent of the kit of parts supplier?

[shakotan]

PAUL500 said:

If that is the case then why have two different criteria rather than one covering both?

Can you name a kit of parts that is type approved that allows a third party to then modify a chassis independent of the kit of parts supplier?

Kit-Converted Rules clearly state that to retain the original VRM the chassis/shell needs to be unmodified, to have an age-related plate it has to be a new unmodified shell from the manufacturer or a used modified shell which retains its Type Approval (clue: it loses Type Approval when it is modified), and if you don't have either of those you get a Q-plates through an IVA.

[PAUL500]

You have not answered my question though, name a kit of parts that is type approved that allows an owner to fit it to a modified chassis whilst still retaining an age related plate!

DVLA will not have just simply come up with this principal off their own back, it will have been devised to cover a recognised and known need.

If you follow the link in the DVLA clarification for kit of parts vehicles, then where it relates to type approval (when applicable) is also states that a car is exempt from such if it is over 10 years old.

I am not being pedantic, I am simply quoting exactly what is officially written, where are you are simply interpreting what is written, but your interpretation is no where to be found under the definition listed by the body that regulates these rules under this classification.

They have provided a means where by a car can have its chassis modified and still retain an age related plate, where as they do not allow such under the preceding kit car classification in their regulations.

[shakotan]

PAUL500 said:

They have provided a means where by a car can have its chassis modified and still retain an age related plate, where as they do not allow such under the preceding kit car classification in their regulations.

No, they haven't, as I explained above. The vehicle STILL needs Type Approval evidence, and modifying the chassis away from its factory form loses it's Type Approval, by the 8-point Rules, therefore you need to gain the Type Approval back through other routes, namely an IVA.

As for a Kit Conversion which enables a vehicle to gain Type Approval, I don't have evidence of one, I was merely stating that by the Rules, if one existed then it had to be Type Approved in order for the vehicle to not be subject to an IVA.

Edited by shakotan on Monday 19th February 08:10

[Todd Bonzalez]

OverSteery said:

And people exceed the speed limit whilst using their mobile phones all the time with zero issues. It doesn't mean that other don't get caught and into trouble .

Eh? He was asking about DVLA and MOT issues. I'm telling him they'll be fine as I literally did similar with no issues.
Do people come on here just to be aholes or what?

[aeropilot]

Todd Bonzalez said:

OverSteery said:

And people exceed the speed limit whilst using their mobile phones all the time with zero issues. It doesn't mean that other don't get caught and into trouble .

Eh? He was asking about DVLA and MOT issues. I'm telling him they'll be fine as I literally did similar with no issues.
Do people come on here just to be aholes or what?

And it was pointed out to you that, you just did an engine swap, not an engine, gearbox and axle swap with bodyshell mods, which means it won't automatically 'be as fine' as you implied.

[Todd Bonzalez]

aeropilot said:

And it was pointed out to you that, you just did an engine swap, not an engine, gearbox and axle swap with bodyshell mods, which means it won't automatically 'be as fine' as you implied.

I did do a gearbox and axle swap as well though.
As did about 30 guys I know doing similar things.

[aeropilot]

Todd Bonzalez said:

aeropilot said:

And it was pointed out to you that, you just did an engine swap, not an engine, gearbox and axle swap with bodyshell mods, which means it won't automatically 'be as fine' as you implied.

I did do a gearbox and axle swap as well though.
As did about 30 guys I know doing similar things.

What gearbox and axle...?

Any bodyshell mods...?

[Todd Bonzalez]

aeropilot said:

What gearbox and axle...?

Any bodyshell mods...?

Tremec 6060, Viper, yes.

But as we all know on PH. Real world experience means nothing.

What actually matters is comparing modifications to toys to drink driving or whatever. I'm out.