When will you own an electric car?
Discussion
RobDickinson said:
DoubleD said:
So you have no evidence to back up your statements. Ok
Theres plenty of evidence.Banning ICE by 2030.. why would you be developing new ones?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/bertelschmitt/2016/10...
Suppliers know whats up.
https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1111949_german...
Volvo no more pure ICE cars
https://www.media.volvocars.com/global/en-gb/media...
China are likely to ban ICE soon too.
Gary C said:
Monkeylegend said:
Easy, use Formula E technology.
Charge two cars, tow one behind the other, when the first runs put of juice switch them round. You need to think outside the box.
LolCharge two cars, tow one behind the other, when the first runs put of juice switch them round. You need to think outside the box.
I can see the whoosh parrot being needed though
Um, you maybe right.
kambites said:
DoubleD said:
So we can remove filling a car with petrol as a problem then. Good.
I don't remember anyone ever claiming it was a problem? Just that it's more effort and time than plugging in an EV which someone was claiming was. I don't hugely mind having to do it and I will continue to do it for my fun car because that's worth it. But for the family car it's a negative point; not a huge one, but a negative point none-the-less.
DoubleD said:
kambites said:
DoubleD said:
Or fill up when you are passing a petrol station anyway
Which is fine if you regularly pass a petrol station... and then you still have to stand around in the cold on a petrol station forecourt. No thanks. Pass one on a motorway you need to get petrol at and you will be fleeced for way too much.
people that only fill up every two weeks can't be doing that much mileage either.
Yep for boring transport I'm sold on it but even I realise it's not affordable or practical for everyone especially if you travel long distance.
At the moment I could manage with a Tesla but they are crazy expensive. So I have a hybrid.
For an about town car a leaf is great but yes if you travel you're currently better of with a second car etc. Even Nissan realise this as when buying a leaf they give you 10 (I think) days of free ice car use included.
It's pretty easy to graph battery cost and energy density and see where the market is heading though. 2020 will see masses of new ev and phev models.
At the moment I could manage with a Tesla but they are crazy expensive. So I have a hybrid.
For an about town car a leaf is great but yes if you travel you're currently better of with a second car etc. Even Nissan realise this as when buying a leaf they give you 10 (I think) days of free ice car use included.
It's pretty easy to graph battery cost and energy density and see where the market is heading though. 2020 will see masses of new ev and phev models.
DoubleD said:
Ease of plugging in an electric car will depend on your home set up. For some it will be very easy, for others it will be impossible.
Yup, which is part of the reason EVs are good for some people and not others... I'm not sure why people have so much difficulty with this and try to tell me that an EV will be an inconvenient solution for me without knowing anything about my personal circumstances. eliot said:
SystemParanoia said:
You dont need to charge the powerwall from solar..
just charge it from cheap economy 7 rates, and use it up during the expensive time
Have you got the evidence to back that up?just charge it from cheap economy 7 rates, and use it up during the expensive time
Last time I did some fag packet calcs it totally didn’t add up.
First of, E7 costs more than flat rate electricity during the day . so you need to be able to store the best part of an entire days worh of electric overnight.
Secondly you are not supposed to fully discharge the pw each time you use it (wears it out)
This means you need lots of pw’s to ensure you have enough capacity for the entire day and not to drain it too much a day.
If pw’s were like £1k each, then the maths should add up - but we are not at that point yet.
The diy pw community are probably the ones getting close to that, because they pay little or nothing for thier batteries as they salvage the very same 18650 batteries from laptops that are used in tesla.
The other possibility is ‘worn out’ ev batteries which have a reduced range, these would make a great source of pw batteries - in fact I believe eaton are working with nissan in this regard at the moment.
THIS document talks about using powerwalls on cheap rate electric, but skips over the detail. (There's a number of mistakes in that document IMO, such as ignoring capital repayment costs of the hardware)
It costs £7k to buy and install a powerwall.
It can put out a maximum of 13.5Kwh (less 10% losses)
The Tide tarrif mentioned in that document charges 24p per KWh between 16.00 and 19.00 and 4.99p overnight. So clearly you would want to use the powerwall in peak hours.
If we assume that we charged the Powerwall overnight @ 4.99p per Kw hour and consumed it's entire capacity between 16.00 and 19.00 we would save £1.14 against a flat rate tariff of 13p KWh per Day.
That's a saving of £419 a year and means it will take ~16 years to repay your capital outlay. Somehow i don't see this device lasting even 10 years.
I track every aspect of my house in great detail and I can tell you my average draw between 4pm and 7pm is 1.7kw (5.1KWh over the same 3 hours).
Plug that into the same formula and I only save 43p a day, £158 a year - which means my powerwall will take 44 years to pay back.
Efbe said:
DoubleD said:
kambites said:
DoubleD said:
Or fill up when you are passing a petrol station anyway
Which is fine if you regularly pass a petrol station... and then you still have to stand around in the cold on a petrol station forecourt. No thanks. Pass one on a motorway you need to get petrol at and you will be fleeced for way too much.
people that only fill up every two weeks can't be doing that much mileage either.
eliot said:
I know it's bad form to quote yourself, but in many ways I want the concept of storage to replace peak demand pricing to work - but the maths just don't seem to add up at-all.
THIS document talks about using powerwalls on cheap rate electric, but skips over the detail. (There's a number of mistakes in that document IMO, such as ignoring capital repayment costs of the hardware)
It costs £7k to buy and install a powerwall.
It can put out a maximum of 13.5Kwh (less 10% losses)
The Tide tarrif mentioned in that document charges 24p per KWh between 16.00 and 19.00 and 4.99p overnight. So clearly you would want to use the powerwall in peak hours.
If we assume that we charged the Powerwall overnight @ 4.99p per Kw hour and consumed it's entire capacity between 16.00 and 19.00 we would save £1.14 against a flat rate tariff of 13p KWh per Day.
That's a saving of £419 a year and means it will take ~16 years to repay your capital outlay. Somehow i don't see this device lasting even 10 years.
I track every aspect of my house in great detail and I can tell you my average draw between 4pm and 7pm is 1.7kw (5.1KWh over the same 3 hours).
Plug that into the same formula and I only save 43p a day, £158 a year - which means my powerwall will take 44 years to pay back.
There are companies in America installing batteries on the grid side of commercial enterprises (hotels etc), charge with cheap off peak, release this during high peak times. They basically split the money saved between the battery supplier and the commercial enterprise - a no cost install for the company. THIS document talks about using powerwalls on cheap rate electric, but skips over the detail. (There's a number of mistakes in that document IMO, such as ignoring capital repayment costs of the hardware)
It costs £7k to buy and install a powerwall.
It can put out a maximum of 13.5Kwh (less 10% losses)
The Tide tarrif mentioned in that document charges 24p per KWh between 16.00 and 19.00 and 4.99p overnight. So clearly you would want to use the powerwall in peak hours.
If we assume that we charged the Powerwall overnight @ 4.99p per Kw hour and consumed it's entire capacity between 16.00 and 19.00 we would save £1.14 against a flat rate tariff of 13p KWh per Day.
That's a saving of £419 a year and means it will take ~16 years to repay your capital outlay. Somehow i don't see this device lasting even 10 years.
I track every aspect of my house in great detail and I can tell you my average draw between 4pm and 7pm is 1.7kw (5.1KWh over the same 3 hours).
Plug that into the same formula and I only save 43p a day, £158 a year - which means my powerwall will take 44 years to pay back.
Not sure it would work out for me havnt done the maths - 12c off peak, 34c on peak power, daytime use would easily fit within powerwall 2 capacity though. 13kwh per day is what $2.80 saved max a day or $1k a year, powerwall has to be $10k cost or something I guess.
DoubleD said:
Efbe said:
DoubleD said:
kambites said:
DoubleD said:
Or fill up when you are passing a petrol station anyway
Which is fine if you regularly pass a petrol station... and then you still have to stand around in the cold on a petrol station forecourt. No thanks. Pass one on a motorway you need to get petrol at and you will be fleeced for way too much.
people that only fill up every two weeks can't be doing that much mileage either.
the reality is, getting petrol is a pita. plugging your car in would also be a pita. But in the same way I am happy to charge my phone up every night, I would not want to stop past a shop once a week/fortnight to replace the battery(if it lasted all that time)
I think that's the best analogy I can come up with on this, when I go out for extended trips, I will look for charge on a train, in a cafe etc, so it does seem to work as one. Wireless charging also takes that pain of having to plug it in away and i'm sure the same will happen with electric cars, until the point of wherever you park is charging you. But for now, just plugging it in at the end of your day is hardly an issue, much easier than filling up at a petrol station.
The major pain for me is that there's no petrol stations on or anywhere near my commute. Although replacing the family car with an EV wouldn't help with that because I commute in the Elise. 
for me there were a list of criteria EVs had to hit before I got one...
1) ease of charging. this seems to have been answered now, plenty of charging stations at service stations on motorways, this is where you would need them for longer trips.
2) speed of charging. Also seems to have been answered superchargers etc are pretty quick now. Gone is the thought of a 3hr wait for them to charge
3) Range. tesla's current range of cars all have good range. 330-400 miles on the model S is pretty huge. I would very very rarely need more.
4) Design. Thats good now, most of them look pretty good.
5) Cost. Still an issue here. Hopefully time will improve this, but cost is going to have to come way down to meet the needs of 90% of the population
1) ease of charging. this seems to have been answered now, plenty of charging stations at service stations on motorways, this is where you would need them for longer trips.
2) speed of charging. Also seems to have been answered superchargers etc are pretty quick now. Gone is the thought of a 3hr wait for them to charge
3) Range. tesla's current range of cars all have good range. 330-400 miles on the model S is pretty huge. I would very very rarely need more.
4) Design. Thats good now, most of them look pretty good.
5) Cost. Still an issue here. Hopefully time will improve this, but cost is going to have to come way down to meet the needs of 90% of the population
I think how the used market develops will be the key factor there.
The 40kwh Leaf isn't far off being class competitive in terms of list price once the government's grant is taken into account - a Leaf costs about the same as a mid-range diesel Golf. However, the lease/PCP rates are considerably higher than the Golf's. Whether that continues to be the case will presumably depend on how residuals pan out.
Of course the lower fuelling costs will offset that to a degree.
The 40kwh Leaf isn't far off being class competitive in terms of list price once the government's grant is taken into account - a Leaf costs about the same as a mid-range diesel Golf. However, the lease/PCP rates are considerably higher than the Golf's. Whether that continues to be the case will presumably depend on how residuals pan out.
Of course the lower fuelling costs will offset that to a degree.
It's amazing the places that have electricity nowadays...
95 percent of car trips in the UK are less than 25 miles.
Only 2 percent of trips are over 50 miles.
This means a 40kwh leaf for the average UK person would need charging about once a week, or about 6kwh a day which takes 2 hours from a normal UK socket.
95 percent of car trips in the UK are less than 25 miles.
Only 2 percent of trips are over 50 miles.
This means a 40kwh leaf for the average UK person would need charging about once a week, or about 6kwh a day which takes 2 hours from a normal UK socket.
Edited by RobDickinson on Sunday 18th February 22:21
RobDickinson said:
Not sure it would work out for me havnt done the maths - 12c off peak, 34c on peak power, daytime use would easily fit within powerwall 2 capacity though. 13kwh per day is what $2.80 saved max a day or $1k a year, powerwall has to be $10k cost or something I guess.
Maths seem to stack up more for your scenario.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff