RE: Porsche confirms the death of diesel

[keith2.2]

Sebastian Tombs said:

unsprung said:

This is one of the top remarks that US tourists make when first visiting Europe (the others being, "Beautiful old buildings" and "How can anybody afford to live here?").

My first visit to the UK, in the 1980s, my parents and I could hardly believe what we were experiencing: being blasted by swirling clouds of fumes. Buses and lorries deposited clouds of diesel particulates on the pavement and the scent of unburnt hydrocarbons (no cat's) spewed from passenger cars. Lots of motorbikes about. It was, we said while trying to make light of it all, some sort of neo-Dickensian thing.

In the end of course we had a fabulous time and I subsequently returned on a regular basis, including travelling the length of the UK and working in the Southeast.

New York, San Francisco, and LA all have much much nicer air than London because of the lack of diesels, as does Hong Kong (where all the cabs are LPG).
Shanghai would but because of their 3rd world drainage and sanitation it stinks of st.

As an ex-Londoner now living in Hong Kong - lets just be clear - Hong Kong does NOT have cleaner air.

I'm being pedantic of course - it IS a bit less diesely. A bit.

[RobDickinson]

Onehp said:

Best is to ban all ice cars from city centres if clean air is really what matters...

That'll be happening 5 to 10 years off

[Dale487]

KillianB4 said:

The reactionary attitude to the diesel thing is nonsense. The problem we have is that soooo many people have been buying diesels for years that didn't ever need them. If they hadn't been pushed toward them in the first place we wouldn't have the issue. I work in car sales (don't hold it against me) and have been advising many of my customers for years that they should NOT be buying a diesel due to the driving requirements they have discussed with me. Very few of them ever listened. "Well Jim down the road has one and he said its great on fuel and its cheaper at the pumps too so I want one, he reckons he's getting 60mpg out of his" or they say they "NEED" a diesel but when I ask why they can't seem to answer unless it was something to do with "low tax". Now they are back looking for a petrol. Or complaining about issues with their diesel which are related to the improper use of such an engine. Of course its my fault then.

I had a young lady in the showroom the other day who told me that she was doing less than 7,000 miles a year and mostly city driving, I directed her to a petrol engined version of the model she had mentioned in the showroom. She wrinkled her nose and said: "But I need a diesel it'll use less fuel, and that car is far too big to be powered by a 1.0 engine it'll be dead slow." I was trying to explain how the petrol engine would be much more suitable (and cheaper, but I think people immediately distrust a car salesman who says he's going to save them money) before her mother interjected and told me to stop trying to influence her decision.

I've taken to letting customers test drive the smaller engine capacity cars first and telling them while we are on the road what size it is so they can then see if it really is enough power to satisfy them or not.

Then I have the people doing the mileage and type of driving to justify having a diesel and coming in demanding a (non existent) electric vehicle that can somehow replicate the same range as their current diesel because the man on the radio said diesel is going to be banned everywhere.

Toyota and Lexus' current adverts proclaiming "diesel is dead" aren't helping either but I foresee Toyota having a healthy few years ahead of them as they can offer a hybrid in almost every model right now while the other manufacturers are scrambling to catch up. The local Toyota dealer is shifting next to no diesels and his second hand lot has very few diesels left either. Great marketing move on their part taking advantage of the current climate, I hope they gave the guy who came up with the "diesel is dead" line a bonus cos it looks to be working a treat. I don't believe EVs are the answer or anything but good business is good business.

Unfortunately people are just sheep and we can't ever change that.

To be slightly back on topic, its a great move by Porsche. Diesel Cayenne's were their saviour and now they will be applauded for ceasing to sell the same car. And as previously mentioned, outside of Europe they shift very few diesels so its really not going to affect them in the short or long term.

A car sales man like you saved me £10K; my wife thought she wanted us to have a SEAT Ateca (and with the reviews who was I to argue) but just over 12 months ago it was a 9 month wait for a 1.4 petrol - which wasn't an option - so he suggested a Leon ST. Which turns out to be better in so many ways; bigger boot, cheaper to tax (£35/year v £140/year) & better MPG for the same engine, I could get the FR trim which wasn't available on the Ateca at the time. His boss may not thank him (as I'm sure they could have found a demonstrator somewhere to sell me) but I thank him for his honesty.

I've heard of a number of sales people encouraging people to buy diesel, even in the last year or so, say its what the market wants come re-sale.

[DonkeyApple]

KillianB4 said:

DonkeyApple said:

Just to correct that bit. It was the Boxster that saved Porsche from bankruptcy. And the Cayenne when it came out in 2002 was a V8 NA and the Turbo. It totally redefined the SUV market by bringing high performance to it. Wholly fitting of the Porsche marque and great cars.

The diesel didn’t appear until Porsche merged under VW and played no part in saving the business. It was just about fitting with VW’s need to shift as many units as possible. 9 seconds to 60 and the cheapest model highlights what the product was really about.

I stand corrected.

I had to check the dates as I thought the VW deal was set earlier but that little bit of history still amazes me that Porsche went from nearly bankrupt in the mid 90s, launches the Boxster that saves it, then recognised that the SUV market is the place to be ahead of everyone and launches high performance SUVs in 2002 and by 2005 it announces its plan to buy VW and to all intents and purposes it turns into a hedge fund using the car sales revenue as margin at the options brokers and seemingly punting off inside information to steadily build a 50% stake in VW by early 2008 then up to 75% by late 2008 via options trades and then it can’t pay its broker margin that equates to something like €9bn and VW is saved from the takeover and merged instead but as the dominant partner. And then the low powered diesels appear.

[DaveCWK]

I always hated that stylised 'diesel' badge on the Cayenne front wing, right beside the door.

[DonkeyApple]

Cobnapint said:

It's certainly a radical move, but I don't think it's a great one.

One things for sure, Porsche are about to sell one hell of a lot LESS Cayennes and Macans. Just because diesel has gone, it doesn't mean everybody is going to naturally buy a petrol version instead. They are more expensive to buy for a start; they have a drink problem (and therefore have less range), and most importantly - they don't drive as well. I fully expect all OPCs to be handling lots of deposit return requests in the coming weeks.

I don't think there'll be a huge switch to hybrid either. They aren't really that economical and the weight of the pallet of batteries dulls the handling. They only really make sense if you're obsessed about a low BIK rate and can live with the other compromises.

The reason Porsche have done this is purely to save themselves having fields full of part exchange diesels they can't shift when local authorities will be shafting anybody with a diesel badge who dare come within 1 mile of their precious city centre in about three years time. Yes, that city centre, the one with the smoking public transport buses and taxis.

From a logic perspective you’re bang on. From a real world perspective, as Killian showed with the insane cultural switch to diesel, so long as you tell the average Brit that the hybrid will save puppies and will cost less to fill up and less to tax then they will rush to their bank to borrow £50,000 that they don’t have and hurl it at Porsche so as to save £5/year on tax.

Also, let’s not forget that Europe is not the future for this industry. All eyes are on China, Brazil and the US and going forward core products and key decisions will be made based on what is best for those markets. What we will get is more sloppy seconds than a product tailored for the U.K.

What the whole sorry saga of the political abuse of diesel has shown everyone is just how easy and straightforward it is to get an entire population to believe any old st and to go and borrow thousands to save hundreds. And humans haven’t suddenly changed. They will do exactly the same with hybrids because hybrids have been chosen as the next solution to urban pollution. It doesn’t really matter what their cost is we know that it will only take a few years for the majority of new sales to be hybrids as people rush deeper into debt and forsaking their pension contributions to save £1 in tax.

But frankly, from a sporting perspective this is great news. We’ve had a decade of pretty much the only run of the mill performance cars floating around being all exactly the same. They all only Rev to 5000, they all run through an 8 speed box designed to basically keep them droning at 1700 rpm for 99% of the time, they all deliver performance via an initial shove from 1500-3000 and then that’s it, they all stink when sitting at the lights in summer, they all sound awful and they all have horrible lag that sucks the pleasure out of spirited driving. (Please note that paragraph makes use of hyperbolic expressions before the deeply sensitive among PH collapse into their usual downward spiral or incandescent rage and smugness;))

With a petrol hybrid the way the hybrid element is married in with the ICE differs and some of these units are little screamers with actual character, something that simply has not been seen in the mid level market for a very long time. I do hold out hope that as part of the next rush by consumers to spend money they don’t have we get some character and style returning to the ICE as a result.

[culpz]

Ahbefive said:

Can't wait until the diesels are gone. They are nasty and only really needed for HGVs.

Good riddance.

I said the exact same thing when i was younger. I've since learned that diesels do have their place. I'm fortunate enough to only do majority short trips and commutes, so i've never had or owned a diesel so far, fortunately, I don't particularly like the ones that i've driven either but i can understand that for some, doing 20k miles per annum in anything other than a diesel isn't very cost effective.

With that being said, turbo petrol cars are getting better. I know others may not agree. I'm convinced that my current B9 1.4 TFSI A4 would make a great alternative to heavy-oil. Filling up a full tank gives me an indicated 550 mile range. I'm definitely not getting that, but even after my trip to Oban in Scotland for a week, i got over 600 miles indicated with a fair bit of motorway work.

[DonkeyApple]

Sebastian Tombs said:

New York, San Francisco, and LA all have much much nicer air than London because of the lack of diesels, as does Hong Kong (where all the cabs are LPG).
Shanghai would but because of their 3rd world drainage and sanitation it stinks of st.

This is a very Yipper style post.

Both LA and HK are noteably more polluted than London and have been for decades. Shanghai is pretty much one of the most polluted of the ‘developed’ cities on the planet. And NY has always been on about a par with London as the two cities have had similar rates of industrial decline, and similar truck and shipping levels of activities among other factors.

The only city mentioned that is significantly better is unsurprisingly San Fransicso.

But, it is worth looking at the basic global data because urban pollution is simply not a problem in the West. The problem is in the BRICS but I suspect the only way to get them to improve is for them to see the gulf widening further between them and the West as the West continues to improve its urban air quality.

I think the first Western city to appear on this list is somewhere around 85: https://www.numbeo.com/pollution/rankings.jsp

[5to1]

DonkeyApple said:

But, it is worth looking at the basic global data because urban pollution is simply not a problem in the West. The problem is in the BRICS but I suspect the only way to get them to improve is for them to see the gulf widening further between them and the West as the West continues to improve its urban air quality.

Guessing many people posting havent been to the likes of Delhi or Beijing.

But I disagree the gulf widening between our air quality and theirs would change their attitude. They are going through their own industrial revolution. And just like during ours, lifting people out of poverty takes priority over clean air. Not poverty as we like to define it, but poverty where large swathes of your population have a significant chance of dying from hunger, exposure, lack of clean water, etc They'll get their environmental act together when the economic gulf between us and them closes, at least to the extent that most people don't need to worry where their next meal is going to come from :/

[DonkeyApple]

5to1 said:

DonkeyApple said:

But, it is worth looking at the basic global data because urban pollution is simply not a problem in the West. The problem is in the BRICS but I suspect the only way to get them to improve is for them to see the gulf widening further between them and the West as the West continues to improve its urban air quality.

Guessing many people posting havent been to the likes of Delhi or Beijing.

But I disagree the gulf widening between our air quality and theirs would change their attitude. They are going through their own industrial revolution. And just like during ours, lifting people out of poverty takes priority over clean air. Not poverty as we like to define it, but poverty where large swathes of your population have a significant chance of dying from hunger, exposure, lack of clean water, etc They'll get their environmental act together when the economic gulf between us and them closes, at least to the extent that most people don't need to worry where their next meal is going to come from :/

I think that is a very valid point. They certainly aren’t going to react in any huge hurry but there is always pressure among new world economies to be more like the West and so the cleaner our cities become then it will eventually drag the others up.

I wonder just how much improvement we can actually get in places like London through targeting private cars though. As the ULEZ kicks in and people switch from diesel to hybrid are we really going to see any overall reduction in pollution of significance?

And as you say, we only think London is polluted because we reference it against some village elsewhere in England where you can hear and smell a fly farting. Actually start comparing it to polluted global cities and it's a paradise.

[aeropilot]

gred said:

I live in rural Wiltshire and the local OPC sold the vast majority of their Cayennes and Macans in the diesel format. I think this will hit them quite hard, at least in the short term.

I agree.

I almost took the plunge and ordered a Platinum Cayenne Diesel S 18 months ago, but, talked myself out of it on basis of unjustifiable cost grounds.....

Now kind of wishing I hadn't now, as it would have been a great, buy and run it for next 10 years until retirement car......

[fezst]

Jual Mass Flywheel said:

I wonder how many of the diesel haters have to do nearly 20K a year, support 3 kids and pay a mortgage on an average wage? For some people every penny counts. Now of course with regards to new Porsches and their price point that doesn't really hold water but for many of us a daily barge needs to be cheap to run.

I wish I could live in petrol eutopia but I can't.

Absolute drivel, theres plenty of economical petrols that won't mean you'll end up homeless

[oldtimer2]

VW was responsible for the push to diesel and the tax incentives for diesels after CO2 was demonised. As Professor King, a former Chief Scientist to the UK government complained the other day, he was duped by VW's test results for diesel engines (though I think that a poor excuse for a scientist).

In consequence long suffering consumers have been landed with yet more wasted spending as the politicians lurch from one "solution" to another. "Electrification" is but the latest that will hit your wallet.

[DonkeyApple]

oldtimer2 said:

VW was responsible for the push to diesel and the tax incentives for diesels after CO2 was demonised. As Professor King, a former Chief Scientist to the UK government complained the other day, he was duped by VW's test results for diesel engines (though I think that a poor excuse for a scientist).

In consequence long suffering consumers have been landed with yet more wasted spending as the politicians lurch from one "solution" to another. "Electrification" is but the latest that will hit your wallet.

There were scientific papers on the harm of NOx in the urban environment published in the 70s. One of the largest being based on London air. The findings of these papers were being taught in universities in the mid 90s. Everyone in the field knew. The drive was purely political.

[Thorburn]

Dale487 said:

A car sales man like you saved me £10K; my wife thought she wanted us to have a SEAT Ateca (and with the reviews who was I to argue) but just over 12 months ago it was a 9 month wait for a 1.4 petrol - which wasn't an option - so he suggested a Leon ST. Which turns out to be better in so many ways; bigger boot, cheaper to tax (£35/year v £140/year) & better MPG for the same engine, I could get the FR trim which wasn't available on the Ateca at the time. His boss may not thank him (as I'm sure they could have found a demonstrator somewhere to sell me) but I thank him for his honesty.

I've heard of a number of sales people encouraging people to buy diesel, even in the last year or so, say its what the market wants come re-sale.

We did similar, albeit went with an Octavia vRS in the end after looking at the Ateca and Karoq.

Height of comedy was enquiring about ordering and lead times on an Ateca 1.4 TFSI after test driving one
"Oh, you can't."
"Why?"
"They've stopped taking orders on the 1.4 as it is being replaced by the 1.5 Evo they use in the Karoq."
"Ok, so if we ordered a 1.5?"
"You can't, they haven't announced it yet."

Brilliant.

[aeropilot]

DonkeyApple said:

Sebastian Tombs said:

New York, San Francisco, and LA all have much much nicer air than London because of the lack of diesels, as does Hong Kong (where all the cabs are LPG).
Shanghai would but because of their 3rd world drainage and sanitation it stinks of st.

This is a very Yipper style post.

Both LA and HK are noteably more polluted than London and have been for decades. Shanghai is pretty much one of the most polluted of the ‘developed’ cities on the planet. And NY has always been on about a par with London as the two cities have had similar rates of industrial decline, and similar truck and shipping levels of activities among other factors.

The only city mentioned that is significantly better is unsurprisingly San Fransicso.

LA is better than it was.
I first visited back in the mid 80's and the brown clag of pollution on the horizon was very evident, and not something I was used to seeing in Greater London at the time.
During each subsequent visit to LA at various times during the subsequent 30 years I've noticed a significant reduction to the LA smog, whereas its noticeably increased in Greater London.

San Fran is as you say a lot cleaner, its coastal location is no doubt one factor, but, also I noticed back in 2004, after a visit there for the first time since 1987, that they had already converted all their buses to electric, via overhead wires.
Trolleybuses, how novel I thought........London Transport got rid of all those back in the early 1950's in favour of noisy, smelly diesel powered buses

[Dale487]

Thorburn said:

Dale487 said:

A car sales man like you saved me £10K; my wife thought she wanted us to have a SEAT Ateca (and with the reviews who was I to argue) but just over 12 months ago it was a 9 month wait for a 1.4 petrol - which wasn't an option - so he suggested a Leon ST. Which turns out to be better in so many ways; bigger boot, cheaper to tax (£35/year v £140/year) & better MPG for the same engine, I could get the FR trim which wasn't available on the Ateca at the time. His boss may not thank him (as I'm sure they could have found a demonstrator somewhere to sell me) but I thank him for his honesty.

I've heard of a number of sales people encouraging people to buy diesel, even in the last year or so, say its what the market wants come re-sale.

We did similar, albeit went with an Octavia vRS in the end after looking at the Ateca and Karoq.

Height of comedy was enquiring about ordering and lead times on an Ateca 1.4 TFSI after test driving one
"Oh, you can't."
"Why?"
"They've stopped taking orders on the 1.4 as it is being replaced by the 1.5 Evo they use in the Karoq."
"Ok, so if we ordered a 1.5?"
"You can't, they haven't announced it yet."

Brilliant.

I didn't even get round to test driving an Ateca - I asked about lead times before getting that far.

One SEAT dealer never returned my calls to arrange a test drive, so went to the other equally close one; who despite me calling a few days ahead that I specifically wanted a petrol, manual, estate Leon - only had a petrol hatch or diesel estate to test drive. Sometimes you think that they don't want to sell you cars!

I might consider an Octavia VRS (manual & petrol) next time but hopefully I won't need as bigger boot and can get a Golf GTI.

Someone suggested that the 1.4ACT (& now the 1.5 Evo) are the future - I agree but only a medium term future before EVs & hybrids become cheaper and batteries smaller & lighter.

[KillianB4]

Thorburn said:

We did similar, albeit went with an Octavia vRS in the end after looking at the Ateca and Karoq.

Height of comedy was enquiring about ordering and lead times on an Ateca 1.4 TFSI after test driving one
"Oh, you can't."
"Why?"
"They've stopped taking orders on the 1.4 as it is being replaced by the 1.5 Evo they use in the Karoq."
"Ok, so if we ordered a 1.5?"
"You can't, they haven't announced it yet."

Brilliant.

The problem now is that the factories were aligned to produce diesels en masse and now with increased demand for petrols the lead times for petrols within VAG is a disaster. The 1.5 is a cracking engine though, I managed to get a few ordered before things went south and the feedback has been excellent.

[Thorburn]

Dale487 said:

One SEAT dealer never returned my calls to arrange a test drive, so went to the other equally close one; who despite me calling a few days ahead that I specifically wanted a petrol, manual, estate Leon - only had a petrol hatch or diesel estate to test drive. Sometimes you think that they don't want to sell you cars!

I guess if they don't have the car they don't have the car...
I'd probably be okay with driving test driving the hatchback and having a look at the estate in a situation like that if I was going to be ordering one.

The first Skoda place we went to we had to ring three times over the course of two weeks before they even worked out if they had the vRS Estate listed on their website. When we got there to see it it turned out a manager had been using it as his daily driver with young family, the boot was jammed shut and couldn't be opened, the rear bumper dented, rear wheel arch scraped, interior filthy and scuffed to hell, tear on the rear seat and we were told we could only have a short test drive because he needed the car back ASAP - this was supposed to be their demonstrator for the whole Octavia range.

Oh, and then we got a sob story about how much time they'd spent with us driving the demo and speccing it up (I already knew the spec I wanted and had it printed off, but they insisted on recreating it all by very slowly going through the websites configurator which they barely seemed to be able to operate) when we ordered it from another dealer which we called and came through at £600 less.

[Dale487]

Thorburn said:

Dale487 said:

One SEAT dealer never returned my calls to arrange a test drive, so went to the other equally close one; who despite me calling a few days ahead that I specifically wanted a petrol, manual, estate Leon - only had a petrol hatch or diesel estate to test drive. Sometimes you think that they don't want to sell you cars!

I guess if they don't have the car they don't have the car...
I'd probably be okay with driving test driving the hatchback and having a look at the estate in a situation like that if I was going to be ordering one.

The first Skoda place we went to we had to ring three times over the course of two weeks before they even worked out if they had the vRS Estate listed on their website. When we got there to see it it turned out a manager had been using it as his daily driver with young family, the boot was jammed shut and couldn't be opened, the rear bumper dented, rear wheel arch scraped, interior filthy and scuffed to hell, tear on the rear seat and we were told we could only have a short test drive because he needed the car back ASAP - this was supposed to be their demonstrator for the whole Octavia range.

Oh, and then we got a sob story about how much time they'd spent with us driving the demo and speccing it up (I already knew the spec I wanted and had it printed off, but they insisted on recreating it all by very slowly going through the websites configurator which they barely seemed to be able to operate) when we ordered it from another dealer which we called and came through at £600 less.

They had the car I wanted & had specifically said I was interested in and asked to test drive - not at the dealer but in their compound, even though I'd given them plenty of notice.