RE: Porsche confirms the death of diesel

[Guvernator]

I agree with some people, very odd move. OK the tide is turning against diesel and maybe it never should have been made so financially attractive through tax incentives in the first place but we are where we are and this move seems very rushed and not well thought out by both the governments and the manufacturers.

I own a Cayenne Diesel, it transports me and my family in comfort and it returns an average 35mpg, more on a long run. If they are ditching the diesel variant, what is going to replace it? The petrol variants are lucky to get 20mpg and the Hybrid version has a battery range of 22 miles after which it becomes a normal petrol except it has an extra 300kgs of battery to haul around.

OK EV might and I stress might be the future but that is in no way certain right now and we may well be having the same conversation in 10 years time about how harmful Lithium mining is etc. It just doesn't seem well thought out, convince people that diesels are going to save the planet so millions of people buy them then decide erm actually we got it wrong, they are killing people leaving millions of people in the lurch.

I'm probably going to be taking a massive bath on my car come trade in time, not too much of an issue as it still suits my needs perfectly and I plan to keep it for a long time but it's a real kick in the nuts for the millions of diesel owners who bought the cars in good faith.

[Jakestar]

Atomic12C said:

When you compare the cost of ownership between many diseasals and petrols, there isn't that much in it to be fair.
Diseasals 'were' often higher priced on the forecourt.
Diseasal fuel is more expensive at the pump.
MPG comparison to good performing petrols showed a saving but not fantastic enough to mean you'd get your money back within 12 years.
(I think I read 12 years in an article a while back being the length of time an owner had to keep the vehicle to 'break' even against a good performing petrol equivalent - based on annual average milage of 12,000)

If you can then extrapolate those cost to somebody doing 24,000 miles per year, then you break even at 6 years of ownership.

But even then, how many people own run around work-horse cars for 6 years these days, when everything is buy now pay later, upgrade after 3 years etc.

But not so in the used market.. my daily commute is 60 miles each way, of which 40 of those is sat at 0.8 leptons on the M40..

I do wonder in the future what (preferably German) car I would get in the £6k-£8k bracket that will last for 3/4 years and return c. 50mpg I currently get (without having to change driving habits). The 118d I currently drive (purchased for £6k with 56k on the clock) is perfect for this, range of over 500miles per tank means I only need to fill up once a week, decent enough interior in M Sport spec and fuel costs are not awful!

I'll be looking to swap in 3 years time for another 50k mileage car, that will be good for another 100k miles, 3 series 2.0D will probably fit the bill, but I do wonder what options will be available in another 2 cars time...

[daemon]

Guvernator said:

I'm probably going to be taking a massive bath on my car come trade in time, not too much of an issue as it still suits my needs perfectly and I plan to keep it for a long time but it's a real kick in the nuts for the millions of diesel owners who bought the cars in good faith.

I dont agree. I think diesel values for used cars will stay reasonably buoyant for some time to come, particularly as there will be less diesels to chose from going forward

I traded in a Passat TDI against our Cooper S, and the MINI dealer had no problems getting a strong over book trade bid for the car. When we dropped it off the trader apparently had the car already sold on - all completely at odds with how all the click bait stories of used diesels being suddenly unwanted and worthless.

[Cobnapint]

Guvernator said:

I agree with some people, very odd move. OK the tide is turning against diesel and maybe it never should have been made so financially attractive through tax incentives in the first place but we are where we are and this move seems very rushed and not well thought out by both the governments and the manufacturers.

I own a Cayenne Diesel, it transports me and my family in comfort and it returns an average 35mpg, more on a long run. If they are ditching the diesel variant, what is going to replace it? The petrol variants are lucky to get 20mpg and the Hybrid version has a battery range of 22 miles after which it becomes a normal petrol except it has an extra 300kgs of battery to haul around.

OK EV might and I stress might be the future but that is in no way certain right now and we may well be having the same conversation in 10 years time about how harmful Lithium mining is etc. It just doesn't seem well thought out, convince people that diesels are going to save the planet so millions of people buy them then decide erm actually we got it wrong, they are killing people leaving millions of people in the lurch.

I'm probably going to be taking a massive bath on my car come trade in time, not too much of an issue as it still suits my needs perfectly and I plan to keep it for a long time but it's a real kick in the nuts for the millions of diesel owners who bought the cars in good faith.

Absolutely spot on sir.

I'm in the same boat, Cayenne diesel, best car I've ever owned, will probably take a hit now Porsche have rushed into assisting the demise of the most suitable engines for SUVs, and another hit when local authorities are given permission by the government to carry out their dirty work for them by introducing LEZ charging for EU5 and below.
Too late to start worrying, the damage has already been done.

[DonkeyApple]

That’s the real hurdle. The used car market is almost entirely diesel and it will take quite some time for the change to come through. But in theory the values of new diesels will dip sufficiently to compensate used buyers for any additional taxation penalties put in place.

I would think that for schlapping up and down a motorway for 60 miles a day the basic diesel will remain a better option for a long time to come and a fall in their values will benefit those who buy used.

[Guvernator]

Cobnapint said:

Absolutely spot on sir.

I'm in the same boat, Cayenne diesel, best car I've ever owned, will probably take a hit now Porsche have rushed into assisting the demise of the most suitable engines for SUVs, and another hit when local authorities are given permission by the government to carry out their dirty work for them by introducing LEZ charging for EU5 and below.
Too late to start worrying, the damage has already been done.

Except they can't even get this part right. My car is a late 2014, Euro 6 so I thought I'd be safe for at least a few more years. I had to go into Westminster the other day, I got hit with an extra 50% surcharge because rather than check to see if my car is Euro 6 compliant, they've decided to use the lazy option and decide on a blanket ruling for all cars older than 2015. I've no doubt this method will be adopted by all the other lazy councils too.

[DonkeyApple]

The sooner Westminster gets a train station, some bus stops, taxi ranks and dedicated roads for pedestrians the better.

[RemyMartin81D]

Jakestar said:

But not so in the used market.. my daily commute is 60 miles each way, of which 40 of those is sat at 0.8 leptons on the M40..

I do wonder in the future what (preferably German) car I would get in the £6k-£8k bracket that will last for 3/4 years and return c. 50mpg I currently get (without having to change driving habits). The 118d I currently drive (purchased for £6k with 56k on the clock) is perfect for this, range of over 500miles per tank means I only need to fill up once a week, decent enough interior in M Sport spec and fuel costs are not awful!

I'll be looking to swap in 3 years time for another 50k mileage car, that will be good for another 100k miles, 3 series 2.0D will probably fit the bill, but I do wonder what options will be available in another 2 cars time...

0.8 leptons..... I miss the cringe thread.

[Guvernator]

DonkeyApple said:

The sooner Westminster gets a train station, some bus stops, taxi ranks and dedicated roads for pedestrians the better.

Sorry I have no idea what you are talking about, I drive a Porsche, all that other stuff looks like too much hard work or for peasants.

In truth I don't often choose to drive to central London as you've rightly stated, there are many other better options available but I had to transport a couple of younguns and using the tube with a couple of push chairs is never fun either for us or other passengers so I took the hit. Still annoyed that they fleeced me an extra £4 an hour despite my car being Euro 6.

[Cobnapint]

Guvernator said:

Except they can't even get this part right. My car is a late 2014, Euro 6 so I thought I'd be safe for at least a few more years. I had to go into Westminster the other day, I got hit with an extra 50% surcharge because rather than check to see if my car is Euro 6 compliant, they've decided to use the lazy option and decide on a blanket ruling for all cars older than 2015. I've no doubt this method will be adopted by all the other lazy councils too.

You may have a case for contesting that.

On the EU6 threshold, they originally said it would be cars below EU4 that get hit. How very short their memory's are.

[aeropilot]

Cobnapint said:

Guvernator said:

I agree with some people, very odd move. OK the tide is turning against diesel and maybe it never should have been made so financially attractive through tax incentives in the first place but we are where we are and this move seems very rushed and not well thought out by both the governments and the manufacturers.

I own a Cayenne Diesel, it transports me and my family in comfort and it returns an average 35mpg, more on a long run. If they are ditching the diesel variant, what is going to replace it? The petrol variants are lucky to get 20mpg and the Hybrid version has a battery range of 22 miles after which it becomes a normal petrol except it has an extra 300kgs of battery to haul around.

OK EV might and I stress might be the future but that is in no way certain right now and we may well be having the same conversation in 10 years time about how harmful Lithium mining is etc. It just doesn't seem well thought out, convince people that diesels are going to save the planet so millions of people buy them then decide erm actually we got it wrong, they are killing people leaving millions of people in the lurch.

I'm probably going to be taking a massive bath on my car come trade in time, not too much of an issue as it still suits my needs perfectly and I plan to keep it for a long time but it's a real kick in the nuts for the millions of diesel owners who bought the cars in good faith.

Absolutely spot on sir.

I'm in the same boat, Cayenne diesel, best car I've ever owned, will probably take a hit now Porsche have rushed into assisting the demise of the most suitable engines for SUVs

Will certainly be interesting to see the sales figures within EU market zone for Cayenne and Macan in 12 months time.....!!

Obviously Porsche are confident that Rest of World sales figures for petrol engine versions will still make it viable to continue building them.

[Chris Y]

Fantastic move. Well done Porsche. Let's get all diesels banned asap.

[BlackGT3]

W12AAM said:

Perhaps pick up a late 2nd hand, diesel Cayenne in a years time...for half price?!

A friend is just about to upgrade his 64 plate Cayenne 3.0D with a host of options which he has owned from new. FPSH, 35k miles and was offered £27k trade in by his OPC. It cost over £66k 4 years ago.

[daemon]

BlackGT3 said:

W12AAM said:

Perhaps pick up a late 2nd hand, diesel Cayenne in a years time...for half price?!

A friend is just about to upgrade his 64 plate Cayenne 3.0D with a host of options which he has owned from new. FPSH, 35k miles and was offered £27k trade in by his OPC. It cost over £66k 4 years ago.

As "similar" cars on autotrader are £35K+, they're simply taking the pee. I'd laugh in their faces and leave.

My BIL was "outraged" by only getting £14K for his three year old XF 2.2d, and to show them how annoyed he was - he bought a new XJ 3.0d. That showed them.

[The Surveyor]

I get the anti-diesel from the short-sighted town dwelling 'petrol-head' but in reality there will always be a place for cars which can cover long distances efficiently.

Petrol cars are less efficient on fuel than diesel despite diesel cars being totally unsuitable for town driving.

What I can't get me head around is Porsche stopping diesel sales when these cars are the very product which has dragged them out of the financial mire. Porsche were in real financial trouble until the Cayenne came along and from the statistics given in the article (nearly half of the Panameras are diesel; for the Macan and Cayenne it's significantly higher, at 62 per cent and 70 per cent respectively) most of their rescue income has come from diesel variants.

Not many of those Porsche owners who currently drive the diesel version will switch to petrol if diesel serves their needs more, they'll go elsewhere and buy a brand which does have a diesel in it's line-up.

Death of diesel or massive boost for Jaguar Land Rover....

[Wills2]

aeropilot said:

Cobnapint said:

Guvernator said:

I agree with some people, very odd move. OK the tide is turning against diesel and maybe it never should have been made so financially attractive through tax incentives in the first place but we are where we are and this move seems very rushed and not well thought out by both the governments and the manufacturers.

I own a Cayenne Diesel, it transports me and my family in comfort and it returns an average 35mpg, more on a long run. If they are ditching the diesel variant, what is going to replace it? The petrol variants are lucky to get 20mpg and the Hybrid version has a battery range of 22 miles after which it becomes a normal petrol except it has an extra 300kgs of battery to haul around.

OK EV might and I stress might be the future but that is in no way certain right now and we may well be having the same conversation in 10 years time about how harmful Lithium mining is etc. It just doesn't seem well thought out, convince people that diesels are going to save the planet so millions of people buy them then decide erm actually we got it wrong, they are killing people leaving millions of people in the lurch.

I'm probably going to be taking a massive bath on my car come trade in time, not too much of an issue as it still suits my needs perfectly and I plan to keep it for a long time but it's a real kick in the nuts for the millions of diesel owners who bought the cars in good faith.

Absolutely spot on sir.

I'm in the same boat, Cayenne diesel, best car I've ever owned, will probably take a hit now Porsche have rushed into assisting the demise of the most suitable engines for SUVs

Will certainly be interesting to see the sales figures within EU market zone for Cayenne and Macan in 12 months time.....!!

Obviously Porsche are confident that Rest of World sales figures for petrol engine versions will still make it viable to continue building them.

I'm not sure people will take a bath, diesel Cayennes and Macans are very popular and I think they will remain so on the used market. I see new car sales dropping for those models as they are too thirsty for all but the deepest of pockets.

[BlackGT3]

daemon said:

BlackGT3 said:

W12AAM said:

Perhaps pick up a late 2nd hand, diesel Cayenne in a years time...for half price?!

A friend is just about to upgrade his 64 plate Cayenne 3.0D with a host of options which he has owned from new. FPSH, 35k miles and was offered £27k trade in by his OPC. It cost over £66k 4 years ago.

As "similar" cars on autotrader are £35K+, they're simply taking the pee. I'd laugh in their faces and leave.

My BIL was "outraged" by only getting £14K for his three year old XF 2.2d, and to show them how annoyed he was - he bought a new XJ 3.0d. That showed them.

8k margin for the OPC

[shakotan]

Toyota are binning diesel too.

My partner has just gone to buy a diesel Rav 4 and been told that even though a diesel option is listed, Toyota are not accepting any further order for diesel-engined passenger vehicles apart from Land Cruiser and Hi-Lux.

[Wills2]

BlackGT3 said:

daemon said:

BlackGT3 said:

W12AAM said:

Perhaps pick up a late 2nd hand, diesel Cayenne in a years time...for half price?!

A friend is just about to upgrade his 64 plate Cayenne 3.0D with a host of options which he has owned from new. FPSH, 35k miles and was offered £27k trade in by his OPC. It cost over £66k 4 years ago.

As "similar" cars on autotrader are £35K+, they're simply taking the pee. I'd laugh in their faces and leave.

My BIL was "outraged" by only getting £14K for his three year old XF 2.2d, and to show them how annoyed he was - he bought a new XJ 3.0d. That showed them.

8k margin for the OPC

Plus a 66k diesel cayenne would have had 16k worth of options on it which tend not to bare much fruit come trade in time, its kept 41% of its invoice value after 4 years which is still OK even with that bid in balls from the OPC.

[DonkeyApple]

Guvernator said:

Sorry I have no idea what you are talking about, I drive a Porsche, all that other stuff looks like too much hard work or for peasants.
.

I fully appreciate that, sir. And forgive my impertinence, again, but isn’t this what Porsche clothing and accessories is all about? So when you sit on the bus instead of people thinking you’re a daytripping village idiot they know that you own a Porsche and are in fact blessing the plebiscite with your presence?