RE: Porsche confirms the death of diesel
Discussion
Jual Mass Flywheel said:
AppleJuice said:
Thought I'd jump in before anyone else - please can we avoid turning this into (yet another) Brexit thread?
Please explain to me quite what the **** my post has to do with Brexit.
ttish post linking 'eu' to EU Directives and Brexit bullst. See NP&E for more info; the thread on Jo Cox MP's murder shows how bad PHers can be at shoehorning their politics in to a post no matter how inappropriate the circumstances.Your post has nothing to do with Brexit. Nevertheless some PHers will try to make it so, therefore I jumped at the chance to try and nip it in the bud. I'm sorry if I've upset you Jual Mass Flywheel.
Edited by AppleJuice on Tuesday 20th February 19:55
jjwilde said:
Good news! I was in London recently and it stinks of diesel, really shocking to an outsider. Can't believe you guys who live there just have to accept it.
Does it heck as like. I was there last week, hardly a whiff of anything due to the C Charge.Where were you, lying in the gutter on the North Circular?
GTEYE said:
But...... is a (new EU6 compliant) diesel actually worse for the environment than an a comparable petrol?
EU6 diesel emissions are broadly the same as an EU4 (~12 year old) petrol. So yes. (This is why the London T charge targets pre-EU6 diesel and pre-EU4 petrol).The European obsession CO2 was always a red herring - politicians trying to save the world from greenhouse gasses made by countries that produce a tangible but not globally significant amount of the problem while completely ignoring the effect of tractor exhausts on the air that their populations were breathing. Only when far too many major cities couldn't meet the air pollution standards did any of them face up to the fact that the policy of using taxation to encourage uptake of diesel was an error.
Diesel does still have a place for long haul applications (the transport industry and people who clock up huge motorway mileages still have worthwhile cases for them) but they do not have a future and frankly never should have had a past either for short journeys and urban transportation. All indications are that things like the T charge will escalate and push tractor juice back into the niches where it belongs. Which IMHO is a very good thing
nickfrog said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Based on my experience, petrol turbo have a very different power delivery to a diesel. Currently there's a Corsa E 1.4T on sale with the same headline 100hp as the Corsa D 1.4 n/a. Also not much difference in quoted 0-60 time.
With the new engine, torque is 200Nm at 1850rpm; the old one was 130Nm at 4000rpm.
The new turbo engine reaches peak hp at 3500rpm where it remains until 6000rpm; the old n/a one reached peak hp at 6000rpm.
Similar peculiarities can be found with the 1.0T engines in the Corsa E, with the 90hp variant peaking at 3700rpm and the 115hp variant peaking at 5000rpm.
I sold my Macan Diesel about 6 months ago, without doubt the best SUV I have ever driven, and there isn’t many I haven’t.
Thought about a Macan GTS, but depreciation was never going to achieve what diesels did.
I have bought my wife an Audi Q5 which in my opinion is soulless compared to the Macan and I don’t even bother going to the golf club in it.
I have driven diesel cars since 1985, and really not looking forward to going EV or petrol, I just enjoy the torque at low revs, and getting the best from it.
Thought about a Macan GTS, but depreciation was never going to achieve what diesels did.
I have bought my wife an Audi Q5 which in my opinion is soulless compared to the Macan and I don’t even bother going to the golf club in it.
I have driven diesel cars since 1985, and really not looking forward to going EV or petrol, I just enjoy the torque at low revs, and getting the best from it.
We're living in times where ideology and politics trump mathmatics and science. And where we have a technicised civilization but where the vast majority of people don't understand or care about science and technology. And companies are being pushed around by their spineless leadership and clueless but sensationalist media. What to say. Diesel and sports car manufacturer was always an odd combination. But the diesel motor has a place in personal transport applications!
Jon_S_Rally said:
On the flip side, the buying public also have to share some of the blame. While governments bear a lot of responsibility for foolish policy making, for most people, a car is their second biggest purchase, why are people not researching that purchase? As noted above, people are buying diesels to do a one mile commute and complaining about the government for "deceiving" them. How about, if you're going to spend £20k on something (or £250 a month), you take some responsibility for yourself and try to better understand what you're buying. People's retardedness when it comes to cars drives me mental. You can't claim to care about the environment and then ignorantly purchase a machine that pollutes it. That just doesn't wash with me.
Before you go calling joe public retarded, how do you expect them to buy a car that is not there on the ground? It's all well and good a petrol version exists. And yes you can order it if buying new. But what happens if you want or need it sooner?Edited by Jon_S_Rally on Tuesday 20th February 17:40
I wanted a 650i GC, ended up with 640D GC. Didn't need a diesel, ideally didn't want a diesel, but I would have had to wait 4 months and pay a lot more then the many loaded pre-reg diesel cars floating around. The same applied to the alternatives I was considering A8/A7/CLS/etc.
If company car drivers were ordering diesels, dealers were filling their slots and showrooms with diesels, even many leases were on diesels, that only really leaves someone with a factory order able to buy a petrol.
Which in turn skews the second hand market. Do some searches on second hand cars for sale, I think you'll find mid-size or bigger is heavily dominated by diesels. So how could the second hand buyer grab a petrol car, when there were so many fewer to buy :/
Edited by 5to1 on Tuesday 20th February 21:12
Edited by 5to1 on Tuesday 20th February 21:13
As a lad a Porsche of any type (911, 944, 924 or 928) was a dream car. For me diesels, 4x4s, or 4 door cars do not fit the image of what I perceive a Porsche should be, so I for one am pleased that they are dropping the diesel.
But I do find the image of diesel a bit strange. 10 years ago big love, tax breaks etc and everyone wanted one. Now, everyone hates them. I've just done a 300 mile journey in my 3.0 diesel motorhome and I can't imagine a petrol engine would cut the mustard, but mine has a Euro 4 engine and I'm concerned that in a few years time I can forget about taking it on city breaks.
But I do find the image of diesel a bit strange. 10 years ago big love, tax breaks etc and everyone wanted one. Now, everyone hates them. I've just done a 300 mile journey in my 3.0 diesel motorhome and I can't imagine a petrol engine would cut the mustard, but mine has a Euro 4 engine and I'm concerned that in a few years time I can forget about taking it on city breaks.
paulbirkin said:
I sold my Macan Diesel about 6 months ago, without doubt the best SUV I have ever driven, and there isn’t many I haven’t.
Thought about a Macan GTS, but depreciation was never going to achieve what diesels did.
I have bought my wife an Audi Q5 which in my opinion is soulless compared to the Macan and I don’t even bother going to the golf club in it.
I have driven diesel cars since 1985, and really not looking forward to going EV or petrol, I just enjoy the torque at low revs, and getting the best from it.
You realize an ev version will seriously out torque the diesel right? Thought about a Macan GTS, but depreciation was never going to achieve what diesels did.
I have bought my wife an Audi Q5 which in my opinion is soulless compared to the Macan and I don’t even bother going to the golf club in it.
I have driven diesel cars since 1985, and really not looking forward to going EV or petrol, I just enjoy the torque at low revs, and getting the best from it.
paulbirkin said:
I have driven diesel cars since 1985, and really not looking forward to going EV or petrol, I just enjoy the torque at low revs, and getting the best from it.
You're joking, right? If you're into torque at low revs, you should absolutely love EV's. They have max torque from almost zero RPM. Drive any Tesla or even a BMW i3 and you'll see what I mean.My last two cars were diesels and yes the cost per mile was cheaper. But I never wanted to drive them anywhere as they were just so dull and uninspiring to drive. It really felt like a chore, like driving a van. Switched back to a decent petrol and I actually want to take it out for a drive. All the time and occasionally for no reason other than to blast down the local country lanes. Cost per mile is up, but I would pay the premium every time over a diesel. I guess that is why the nulab car haters were so keen to encourage diesel ownership back in the early 2000s.. Good move by Porsche IMO.
boxerTen said:
Lots of nonsense spouted about fuel economy - a 2+ ton SUV is not where one starts looking for that.
No, if economy is someone’s number one priority they’re not going to buy an SUV, true, but it might be just one of many priorities... For example, I need a car to tow a big trailer, and a 3 series “is not where one starts looking”, as you say, but if you look at my other priorities then it soon becomes clear why I have a 3 series.Jual Mass Flywheel said:
I wonder how many of the diesel haters have to do nearly 20K a year, support 3 kids and pay a mortgage on an average wage? For some people every penny counts. Now of course with regards to new Porsches and their price point that doesn't really hold water but for many of us a daily barge needs to be cheap to run.
I wish I could live in petrol eutopia but I can't.
I suspect that there will still be diesels for genuine purposes for quite some time to come. I wish I could live in petrol eutopia but I can't.
What has ended is the legislation and tax incentives to get absolutely everyone into them. The legislation and tax benefits will now move onto the next VAT creating cycle.
With regards to Diesel engines in Porsches, well that will always be a legacy of the insanity of the legislation and taxation combined with the total whoring or a performance brand and while it’s pleasing that this chapter is closing I very much expect it’s going to be replaced by non performance petrol engines in their vehicles.
RobDickinson said:
The suv saved Porsche, no real surprise they went for a diesel version given how eu was structuring costs.
Had its time and more though. Good riddance.
The SUV saved Porsche. Porsche tried to buy VAG illegally through market manipulation. Porsche mostly failed and the two entities were merged to make one of the largest and most profitable automotive groups on the planet. It was only then that Porsche started building non performance versions of their models. It had nowt to do with saving the company. It was purely about shifting as many bottom end units as they could get away with without destroying the brand perception. Had its time and more though. Good riddance.
Diesels serve a useful role and have a perfectly valid place. Just not in marques like Porsche.
The reactionary attitude to the diesel thing is nonsense. The problem we have is that soooo many people have been buying diesels for years that didn't ever need them. If they hadn't been pushed toward them in the first place we wouldn't have the issue. I work in car sales (don't hold it against me) and have been advising many of my customers for years that they should NOT be buying a diesel due to the driving requirements they have discussed with me. Very few of them ever listened. "Well Jim down the road has one and he said its great on fuel and its cheaper at the pumps too so I want one, he reckons he's getting 60mpg out of his" or they say they "NEED" a diesel but when I ask why they can't seem to answer unless it was something to do with "low tax". Now they are back looking for a petrol. Or complaining about issues with their diesel which are related to the improper use of such an engine. Of course its my fault then.
I had a young lady in the showroom the other day who told me that she was doing less than 7,000 miles a year and mostly city driving, I directed her to a petrol engined version of the model she had mentioned in the showroom. She wrinkled her nose and said: "But I need a diesel it'll use less fuel, and that car is far too big to be powered by a 1.0 engine it'll be dead slow." I was trying to explain how the petrol engine would be much more suitable (and cheaper, but I think people immediately distrust a car salesman who says he's going to save them money) before her mother interjected and told me to stop trying to influence her decision.
I've taken to letting customers test drive the smaller engine capacity cars first and telling them while we are on the road what size it is so they can then see if it really is enough power to satisfy them or not.
Then I have the people doing the mileage and type of driving to justify having a diesel and coming in demanding a (non existent) electric vehicle that can somehow replicate the same range as their current diesel because the man on the radio said diesel is going to be banned everywhere.
Toyota and Lexus' current adverts proclaiming "diesel is dead" aren't helping either but I foresee Toyota having a healthy few years ahead of them as they can offer a hybrid in almost every model right now while the other manufacturers are scrambling to catch up. The local Toyota dealer is shifting next to no diesels and his second hand lot has very few diesels left either. Great marketing move on their part taking advantage of the current climate, I hope they gave the guy who came up with the "diesel is dead" line a bonus cos it looks to be working a treat. I don't believe EVs are the answer or anything but good business is good business.
Unfortunately people are just sheep and we can't ever change that.
To be slightly back on topic, its a great move by Porsche. Diesel Cayenne's were their saviour and now they will be applauded for ceasing to sell the same car. And as previously mentioned, outside of Europe they shift very few diesels so its really not going to affect them in the short or long term.
I had a young lady in the showroom the other day who told me that she was doing less than 7,000 miles a year and mostly city driving, I directed her to a petrol engined version of the model she had mentioned in the showroom. She wrinkled her nose and said: "But I need a diesel it'll use less fuel, and that car is far too big to be powered by a 1.0 engine it'll be dead slow." I was trying to explain how the petrol engine would be much more suitable (and cheaper, but I think people immediately distrust a car salesman who says he's going to save them money) before her mother interjected and told me to stop trying to influence her decision.
I've taken to letting customers test drive the smaller engine capacity cars first and telling them while we are on the road what size it is so they can then see if it really is enough power to satisfy them or not.
Then I have the people doing the mileage and type of driving to justify having a diesel and coming in demanding a (non existent) electric vehicle that can somehow replicate the same range as their current diesel because the man on the radio said diesel is going to be banned everywhere.
Toyota and Lexus' current adverts proclaiming "diesel is dead" aren't helping either but I foresee Toyota having a healthy few years ahead of them as they can offer a hybrid in almost every model right now while the other manufacturers are scrambling to catch up. The local Toyota dealer is shifting next to no diesels and his second hand lot has very few diesels left either. Great marketing move on their part taking advantage of the current climate, I hope they gave the guy who came up with the "diesel is dead" line a bonus cos it looks to be working a treat. I don't believe EVs are the answer or anything but good business is good business.
Unfortunately people are just sheep and we can't ever change that.
To be slightly back on topic, its a great move by Porsche. Diesel Cayenne's were their saviour and now they will be applauded for ceasing to sell the same car. And as previously mentioned, outside of Europe they shift very few diesels so its really not going to affect them in the short or long term.
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