RE: New Porsche 911 previewed
Discussion
epom said:
Porsche really need to drop the 911, I mean its getting a bit long in the tooth now.
Now I don’t know if the above sentiment was trolling, bad humour or genuine, but someone who thinks a company, that is selling loads of a brilliant product should cease doing so, is mildly retarded. Looks like a normal 911 evolution and it’s no surprise that there will be multiple models with some limited top end cars.
I will be interested to see if there is any 991 runout special edition.
As for the new car it’s too early to have any constructive opinion until the road tests come out. The first editions are often not that exciting.
I had an early 991S for a week after release and was underwhelmed by the car, the steering and the PDK. Latest 991 models are hugely better.
I will be interested to see if there is any 991 runout special edition.
As for the new car it’s too early to have any constructive opinion until the road tests come out. The first editions are often not that exciting.
I had an early 991S for a week after release and was underwhelmed by the car, the steering and the PDK. Latest 991 models are hugely better.
Out of interest, if the GT3 is now turbocharged, what's the USP of the GT3 vs the GT2?
All the while it was nat-asp, it was appealing to "the purist" - the trackday-goer who wanted that nice predictable, immediate relationship between right foot and power delivery, and who wanted the car to have a baritone that would make an opera lead jealous. With the Carreras going turbocharged recently, it became the go-to car for the old-school 911 buyer, particularly with the (very apposite) introduction of the Touring pack to provide a modicum of discretion and daily-habitability.
Now it's going to have the same big-torque, lower-rev nature as the GT2, the Turbo (still 4wd, I presume), the Carrera S and the stock Carrera, with the only differentiator across the 5 flavours being the quantum of ponies offered (and the level of suspension tune).
...which is to say "why buy a GT3 anymore?"
All the while it was nat-asp, it was appealing to "the purist" - the trackday-goer who wanted that nice predictable, immediate relationship between right foot and power delivery, and who wanted the car to have a baritone that would make an opera lead jealous. With the Carreras going turbocharged recently, it became the go-to car for the old-school 911 buyer, particularly with the (very apposite) introduction of the Touring pack to provide a modicum of discretion and daily-habitability.
Now it's going to have the same big-torque, lower-rev nature as the GT2, the Turbo (still 4wd, I presume), the Carrera S and the stock Carrera, with the only differentiator across the 5 flavours being the quantum of ponies offered (and the level of suspension tune).
...which is to say "why buy a GT3 anymore?"
Simpler than that.
Back when the gen 1 996 GT3 was made the road car and the race car where very close to each other (much closer than anything since). The car was simply the road going private customer version of the GT3 race car.
Its the GT2 moniker that is a bit of a nonsense. Way back when the 993 GT2 existed it really was a proper beast, I remember seeing em racing in British GT Championship. Over more recent years though it seems to have been nothing other than pure marketing harking back to those 993 race cars. Sadly likewise the GT3 has increasingly become a marketing device as the recent cars don't seem to share much at all with the race cars.
Back when the gen 1 996 GT3 was made the road car and the race car where very close to each other (much closer than anything since). The car was simply the road going private customer version of the GT3 race car.
Its the GT2 moniker that is a bit of a nonsense. Way back when the 993 GT2 existed it really was a proper beast, I remember seeing em racing in British GT Championship. Over more recent years though it seems to have been nothing other than pure marketing harking back to those 993 race cars. Sadly likewise the GT3 has increasingly become a marketing device as the recent cars don't seem to share much at all with the race cars.
NJH said:
Simpler than that.
Back when the gen 1 996 GT3 was made the road car and the race car where very close to each other (much closer than anything since). The car was simply the road going private customer version of the GT3 race car.
Its the GT2 moniker that is a bit of a nonsense. Way back when the 993 GT2 existed it really was a proper beast, I remember seeing em racing in British GT Championship. Over more recent years though it seems to have been nothing other than pure marketing harking back to those 993 race cars. Sadly likewise the GT3 has increasingly become a marketing device as the recent cars don't seem to share much at all with the race cars.
Interesting argument. I’d counter that a production road car never was anything like a racing car really, even in its most hardcore variant. Every last thing is just done differently, right from obvious stuff like the complete removal of non essentials but at an actual design level not just a “we don’t need this bit let’s unbolt it” level but right the way through to things like suspension joints exposed to the weather and with no regard for NVH. I genuinely therefore can’t see a 996 cup being any closer to a 996 GT3 than a 991 cup is to a 991 GT3 - the cars are just totally different.Back when the gen 1 996 GT3 was made the road car and the race car where very close to each other (much closer than anything since). The car was simply the road going private customer version of the GT3 race car.
Its the GT2 moniker that is a bit of a nonsense. Way back when the 993 GT2 existed it really was a proper beast, I remember seeing em racing in British GT Championship. Over more recent years though it seems to have been nothing other than pure marketing harking back to those 993 race cars. Sadly likewise the GT3 has increasingly become a marketing device as the recent cars don't seem to share much at all with the race cars.
Edited to add that although it’s only just relevant I’m a colossal ferrari 360 bore and can tell you that, for example, even in 1999 the ferrari challenge 360 was N O T H I N G like the 360cs - I’ve spent a long time working with those cars and the parts diagrams and truly the cars are chalk and cheese. I’d expect it is the same with Porsche - would be interested to hear from someone with experience of that to clear the point up.
Edited by Julian Thompson on Monday 26th February 20:35
havoc said:
...which is to say "why buy a GT3 anymore?"
Price? Over here (netherlands) a GT3 is 228K, a GT3 RS costs 272K, the GT2RS comes in at a staggering 354K (which for reference, is a full 100K more then a 488 GTB, id expect the 488 Pista to cost less then the GT2RS)Im not entirely up to speed on my 911 flavours, but if you want to get a track oriented porsche to hoon about in, getting the GT3 (RS) rather then the GT2RS saves a boatload of cash for tyres, breaks and fuel.
Personally id get a Cayman S with some suspension/diff options and save even more cash (and buy a ferrari portofino for cruising duties), but that is me
Julian Thompson said:
Hmmm - I see what you’re driving and for sure the scream of the 9500 rpm GT3 is addictive but as a road proposition it’s quite hard to keep a legal speeds and enjoy it and that lack of torque is the culprit really.
It's 9000 rpm not 9500.Sounds like you haven't driven a gen 2 991.
The engines are hugely different. Even though the gen 1 is a masterpiece, relatively
Gen 2 has a much torquier and snappier (at low revs) essentially Cup car engine with far less internal drag due to better lubrication (and internal central oil feed to crankshaft btw)
The lower gen 2 6000rpm max torque masks far more flexibility compared to the gen 1 max torque 6250rpm.
And the gen 2 torque between 6000rpm and 9000 rpm only drops 19.6 percent to 370nm compared to the gen 1 torque dropping a massive 25 percent between 6250 and 9000rpm to a much lower 330nm.
Chalk and cheese.
Edited by av185 on Monday 26th February 21:09
You’re right - I haven’t driven the .2!
And yep - I meant 9000! I got confused because I knew the new one didn’t rev quite as high as the old one!
Sounds a lot different I would like a go in one but I’m really happy with mine regardless even if I’m adding rpm all over the place! Hihihi
And yep - I meant 9000! I got confused because I knew the new one didn’t rev quite as high as the old one!
Sounds a lot different I would like a go in one but I’m really happy with mine regardless even if I’m adding rpm all over the place! Hihihi
Vitorio said:
havoc said:
...which is to say "why buy a GT3 anymore?"
Price? * Much like Range Rover and their matryoshka approach to car design.
av185 said:
Julian Thompson said:
You’re right - I haven’t driven the .2!
And yep - I meant 9000! I got confused because I knew the new one didn’t rev quite as high as the old one!
Both the gen 1 and gen 2 991 gt3s rev to 9k.And yep - I meant 9000! I got confused because I knew the new one didn’t rev quite as high as the old one!
It's the gen 1 gt3rs and 911r which have lower max revs.
Julian Thompson said:
I genuinely therefore can’t see a 996 cup being any closer to a 996 GT3 than a 991 cup is to a 991 GT3 - the cars are just totally different.
Its not my opinion but that of people like Steve Rance over in the Porsche part of this forum, guys who raced, owned and knew these cars in depth. Whether you like it or not its widely accepted that the 996.1 GT3 was much more closely linked to the 996 race cars than any GT3 since.NJH said:
Julian Thompson said:
I genuinely therefore can’t see a 996 cup being any closer to a 996 GT3 than a 991 cup is to a 991 GT3 - the cars are just totally different.
Its not my opinion but that of people like Steve Rance over in the Porsche part of this forum, guys who raced, owned and knew these cars in depth. Whether you like it or not its widely accepted that the 996.1 GT3 was much more closely linked to the 996 race cars than any GT3 since.Interesting topic
Hmmm - I’ve done a bit of research on that and I’m still a bit confused - the 996 cup cars seemed to be just as bespoke as the 991’s from what I can see of it - they seem like the the bespoke race cars you’d expect them to be.
And individual inspections like this even make reference to the 991 actually being closer to the cup spec than previous models of GT3 - hard to argue with such an in depth analysis when the two are side by side....
https://www.elephantracing.com/tech-topics/991-cup...
And individual inspections like this even make reference to the 991 actually being closer to the cup spec than previous models of GT3 - hard to argue with such an in depth analysis when the two are side by side....
https://www.elephantracing.com/tech-topics/991-cup...
Ah yes I’ve found what you mean - the comments were made because the 996 cup car used basically the the same motor as the road car but the 991 uses a bespoke race engine in the cup car. Hard to tell if they have upgraded the race car or down graded the road car but now I see what you’re driving at! Much interesting. Thanks for the information :-)
Best
J
Best
J
havoc said:
So is that all the GT3 becomes? Another 'rung' in the finely-sliced* stratification of 911s, to ensure Porsche drain the maximum possible out of customers' wallets? The step above the GTS, rather than something unique and special?!?
.
Hasnt it been that way for ages though? Porsche covers the entire 120K to 350K range (euros) with the 911, with at some price points both track and luxury/GT oriented offerings. They just throw the 911 at any sportscar niche they can get away with, and charge the customer accordingly..
I'd argue that no 911 out there, even the GT2RS is "something unique and special", They are all the same thing Porsche have been doing for over 50 years, flat 6 at the back, two seats and a tiny rear bench, (updated) beetle derived styling. The special cars for porsche are things like the Carrera GT and 918 Spyder.
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