Why is extra horsepower so expensive?

[otolith]

HedgeyGedgey said:

Look at the older hondas. Ep3's, dc5's etc have next to know torque. But would reel in a VXR or focus st of the same era

Though not if you can’t work a gearbox.

[aka_kerrly]

HedgeyGedgey said:

Look at the older hondas. Ep3's, dc5's etc have next to know torque. But would reel in a VXR or focus st of the same era

Hondas have low final drive an short gears to maximise torque at the wheels which helps them along.

I dare say Yipper hit the nail on the head, relatively speaking powerful cars are cheaper per HP than budget motors.

If you consider (in the UK) you can buy plenty of 200hp cars for £2k, push toward 300hp for £5k and upwards of 400hp for £10k Hp has never been cheaper and that's before you consider the world of modified cars!!

[Toltec]

Danxr46 said:

HP isn’t necessarily what you want to chase but more Torque..... I had my 330d mapped to 290hp and is now putting out 600nm of torque which is 20 less than a GTR. The car 0-60 has dropped a few tenths to 5.9 and 100 in around 12.5 which is focus Rs/Golf R area but in gear the 330d due to torque will be away in no time. Torque matters more than hp

Next you'll say torque is cheap.

[finishing touch]

Reducing weight....


Much more sensible / expensive / satisfying. (delete as applicable)

Paul G

[Shakermaker]

V8RX7 said:

Danxr46 said:

HP isn’t necessarily what you want to chase but more Torque.....

Torque matters more than hp

Really ?

What's faster a Traction Engine or a Fireblade ?

Depends where you're driving it

[Swampy1982]

Toltec said:

Danxr46 said:

HP isn’t necessarily what you want to chase but more Torque..... I had my 330d mapped to 290hp and is now putting out 600nm of torque which is 20 less than a GTR. The car 0-60 has dropped a few tenths to 5.9 and 100 in around 12.5 which is focus Rs/Golf R area but in gear the 330d due to torque will be away in no time. Torque matters more than hp

Next you'll say torque is cheap.

Great pun, used in correct context and relevant to the thread... sadly I feel its not getting the credit it deserves... have yourself a

[Speed addicted]

Shakermaker said:

V8RX7 said:

Danxr46 said:

HP isn’t necessarily what you want to chase but more Torque.....

Torque matters more than hp

Really ?

What's faster a Traction Engine or a Fireblade ?

Depends where you're driving it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6vvntP56mw

Couldn't find a fireblade, but the GSXR1000 is a similar item!

[InitialDave]

Speed addicted said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6vvntP56mw

Couldn't find a fireblade, but the GSXR1000 is a similar item!

Before I click on it, I'm going to guess this is Baron Von Grumble?

Edit: Apparently not!
Here you go: https://youtu.be/CqgEl53x7CM

[Toltec]

Swampy1982 said:

Toltec said:

Danxr46 said:

HP isn’t necessarily what you want to chase but more Torque..... I had my 330d mapped to 290hp and is now putting out 600nm of torque which is 20 less than a GTR. The car 0-60 has dropped a few tenths to 5.9 and 100 in around 12.5 which is focus Rs/Golf R area but in gear the 330d due to torque will be away in no time. Torque matters more than hp

Next you'll say torque is cheap.

Great pun, used in correct context and relevant to the thread... sadly I feel its not getting the credit it deserves... have yourself a

Thank you, I couldn't resist.

[culpz]

Seems like another thread aimed at VAG cars and their re-occurring engines with various power outputs. I don't see the issue, as a simple remap can get them back up to where it was de-tuned from, meaning that you can potentially get a much cheaper car with the same power, after a bit of a software flash.

[RobM77]

HedgeyGedgey said:

Look at the older hondas. Ep3's, dc5's etc have next to know torque. But would reel in a VXR or focus st of the same era

2001-2005 CTR EP3 had 143lb-ft of torque.
2005-2008 Fiesta ST had 140lb-ft of torque

So the EP3 CTR, despite lagging 4 years behind the Fiesta ST, had more torque.

[Car-Matt]

Danxr46 said:

Torque matters more than hp

Nope

Power to weight is what drives performance......torque is about driveability

[BrassMan]

Car-Matt said:

Danxr46 said:

Torque matters more than hp

Nope

Power to weight is what drives performance......torque is about driveability

Revs for peak power divided by revs for peak torque might be a better measure than a bald figure.

[98elise]

V8RX7 said:

Danxr46 said:

HP isn’t necessarily what you want to chase but more Torque.....

Torque matters more than hp

Really ?

What's faster a Traction Engine or a Fireblade ?

Yup

i can produce more torque that the average engine, but I can't produce the same bhp.

[cholo]

I also think part of the answer is because the higher up the range you go, not only do you get more power but you *usually* get more kit as standard, which obviously adds to the cost.

[Mr2Mike]

HedgeyGedgey said:

Look at the older hondas. Ep3's, dc5's etc have next to know torque.

This line is regularly uttered by the clueless. They made about the same torque as most production normally aspirated 2.0L petrol engines.

[Pica-Pica]

DanCousins said:

Danxr46 said:

Torque matters more than hp

No it doesn't.

Torque can be manipulated by gearing. If you want to know how fast a car is going to go from A to B, it's all about the horsies. If your car makes more power, it can do more work, more quickly and will therefore be faster.

Power can be manipulated by gearing, actually. That is, you manipulate the torque to be delivered at higher revs, thus increasing the power.
Power = (Torque x RPM)/Constant. Torque = work capable of being done, Power = rate of doing that work.

[Car-Matt]

Nanook said:

Car-Matt said:

Nope

Power to weight is what drives performance......torque is about driveability

Power to weight is valid to a point.

Consider the Caterham R500, and the Bugatti Veyron.

Very similar power to weight ratio. Very different top speed.

Power overcomes drag, weight has nothing to do with it.

I know which is faster point to point down a b road, but for the same power id rather have less weight than more torque in general

[HedgeyGedgey]

Mr2Mike said:

This line is regularly uttered by the clueless. They made about the same torque as most production normally aspirated 2.0L petrol engines.

So the VXR is NA? Well this is news to me. Hondas lack torque in comparison with their rivals which are turbocharged is the point i was getting at. Also if you look at their power graphs they have next to no torque up top in comparison with less revving turbo cars. Physics doesn't lie, torque × rpm/ 5252

[Limpet]

HedgeyGedgey said:

So the VXR is NA? Well this is news to me. Hondas lack torque in comparison with their rivals which are turbocharged is the point i was getting at. Also if you look at their power graphs they have next to no torque up top in comparison with less revving turbo cars. Physics doesn't lie, torque × rpm/ 5252

But the Honda engine offsets this at the top end by being able to produce torque into far higher revs. Power = torque x revs. The revs are a multiplier, so sustaining the same or even a bit less torque into higher revs gives you a significant boost in power.

For example, 200 horsepower can be 131 lb/ft of torque at 8000 RPM, or 175 lb/ft at 6000 RPM. The exact same amount of overall work is being done in both cases - one is doing less quicker, and the other is doing more, slower. But in a given period of time, the overall work done is the same.

Think of it like moving 20 widgets from one point to another. If you can do one trip a minute with two widgets at a time, or two trips a minute with one widget at a time, it's going to take you 10 minutes either way. But if you can do three trips a minute with one widget, the time drops to well under 7 minutes. Speed (revs) plays a big part.

Edited by Limpet on Monday 26th February 15:51