Bangernomics

[Hoofy]

camshafted said:

A true Bangernomics car should have a WBAC value of £50.

Any car under £4000 then. Oh, you meant before you bring it in...

[colin_p]

Barchettaman said:

Shedding ‘properly’ (as per the Passat thread on RC): buy an old VAG estate that you like and replace/renew everything, leaving you with a practically as-new 12 yr old car.

I thank you for bringing that up, as it is me and my car. Sadly the photos have gone from that thread becuse photobucket pooed itself. The old Passat is going well and is now 15 years old and on a lowly (for the PD engine) 150,000'ish miles.

I like your categorisation as well.

The bangernomics thing for me is a bit too edgy as you'd need to be prepared for a breakdown at any time and as others have said upthread this will usually be when you most need the car. You'd need either a backup car or be prepared to hire one. Either of these negates the object of the exercise. Shedding and shedding properly is the way forward but only if you can put in the spanner time yourself. You can, as you have seen in my thread end up with an as-new car for the additional cost of what would be 2-3 months of lease payments on an actual new car. Once you have brought a car up to scratch then it should serve you as well in an as-new state for 5+ years, save for any niggly stuff which new cars also suffer from.

Reason for an old VAG car despite the hate on here for them (especially the MK4 Golf) is that the mid 90's to mid 00's era ones simply do not rust (save for any bad accident repairs) and parts are widely available and cheaper than chips. This means if you are willing to put in some spanner time and get ahead of the curve and pre-emptively sort things you end up with an extremely cheap reliable car. Especially if you combine this with the legendary 1.9 PD diesel engine. VAG obviously includes Audi / Skoda / Seat but these are not as shed worthy in my mind as they are not as well supported for second hand parts, should you need them. The mechanicals though, of the mid 90's to mid 00's era cars are the same though, especially the 1.9 PD lump.

As for the 1.9 PD lump, by modern standards it is not the most powerful or economical (on paper anyway, but I beg to differ) engine but the way it delivers its power provides the rarest of things in cars these days and that is fun. You get a massive slug or torque which gives the illusion and sensation of massive speed and acceleration at lower than licence losing speeds. Modern stuff is without a doubt faster but also as dull as ditch water unless you go stupid fast. Coupled with its reliability and ability to do 300k+ miles the 1.9 PD, for me is the go-to engine for shedding. There are lots of VAG group cars that used it too. They are also very easily tunable with another 35-45hp seen for less than £100 via a remap. I've not done that as I don't want to unduly stress the car.


My take and experience on the rest, the criteria being a 10+ year old car;

Jap stuff, amazingly reliable engines but the rest of the car will rust away around the engine. Ludicrously expensive and difficult to get hold of outside of the main dealer network parts.

Fords, ditto, had a MK1 Focus that required major welding at 10 years old. Lovely car though.

Vauxhaul, very expensive parts. Wife had a newish Ashtray back in the early 00's, rear wheel bearing went, cost over £200 as a combined hub / bearing / ABS sensor unit wheras the same for a VW would have been £15 for the bearing.

BMW / Merc, they rust plus have stupidly expensive parts.

Volvo / Saab, lovely things that also don't rust but parts costs can be eye watering and difficult to come by.

Mid 00's onwards VAG stuff, not as good as the previous generation stuff, 2.0 diesels are particularly weak and VAG seems to have forgotten all they knew about rust proofing.


My advice therefore for shedding is obviously any mid 90's to mid 00's VAG vehicle, particularly the VW's and in particular any fitted with the 1.9 PD TDI engine. It might be a bit a bit more mundane than the default PH suggestions like Jap this / Saab that / Volvo the other etc but with an old VAG you stand the best chance of continuing to shed for a buttons budget. If you want an exotic or stand out car then that really isn't shedding. Use the money saved by doing mundane shedding on a weekend toy.

[keo]

I would love go back to bangernonics. In a bit of a funny place though. I have a 2.0tdi Quattro a3. It’s done just over 100k and is probably worth £3-4K?
Not sure if it’s worth selling for that. Service history is spot on, flew through last mot and it’s got 4 nearly new michelin piolit sports on it.
I may as well just run this in the ground I suppose and keep looking after it. It’s boribg though!

[sr.guiri]

Scootersp said:

I have the workshop manuals and will attempt all the work required on them. I like to fix (or think I can at least try) things on my cars and enjoy the time and effort involved.

I'll admit to having broken a few things though in my time, 1 or 2 which have been quite expensive to put right.

Me and my ham fists. Torque wrenches help

[Superchickenn]

colin_p said:

Barchettaman said:

Shedding ‘properly’ (as per the Passat thread on RC): buy an old VAG estate that you like and replace/renew everything, leaving you with a practically as-new 12 yr old car.

I thank you for bringing that up, as it is me and my car. Sadly the photos have gone from that thread becuse photobucket pooed itself. The old Passat is going well and is now 15 years old and on a lowly (for the PD engine) 150,000'ish miles.

I like your categorisation as well.

The bangernomics thing for me is a bit too edgy as you'd need to be prepared for a breakdown at any time and as others have said upthread this will usually be when you most need the car. You'd need either a backup car or be prepared to hire one. Either of these negates the object of the exercise. Shedding and shedding properly is the way forward but only if you can put in the spanner time yourself. You can, as you have seen in my thread end up with an as-new car for the additional cost of what would be 2-3 months of lease payments on an actual new car. Once you have brought a car up to scratch then it should serve you as well in an as-new state for 5+ years, save for any niggly stuff which new cars also suffer from.

Reason for an old VAG car despite the hate on here for them (especially the MK4 Golf) is that the mid 90's to mid 00's era ones simply do not rust (save for any bad accident repairs) and parts are widely available and cheaper than chips. This means if you are willing to put in some spanner time and get ahead of the curve and pre-emptively sort things you end up with an extremely cheap reliable car. Especially if you combine this with the legendary 1.9 PD diesel engine. VAG obviously includes Audi / Skoda / Seat but these are not as shed worthy in my mind as they are not as well supported for second hand parts, should you need them. The mechanicals though, of the mid 90's to mid 00's era cars are the same though, especially the 1.9 PD lump.

As for the 1.9 PD lump, by modern standards it is not the most powerful or economical (on paper anyway, but I beg to differ) engine but the way it delivers its power provides the rarest of things in cars these days and that is fun. You get a massive slug or torque which gives the illusion and sensation of massive speed and acceleration at lower than licence losing speeds. Modern stuff is without a doubt faster but also as dull as ditch water unless you go stupid fast. Coupled with its reliability and ability to do 300k+ miles the 1.9 PD, for me is the go-to engine for shedding. There are lots of VAG group cars that used it too. They are also very easily tunable with another 35-45hp seen for less than £100 via a remap. I've not done that as I don't want to unduly stress the car.


My take and experience on the rest, the criteria being a 10+ year old car;

Jap stuff, amazingly reliable engines but the rest of the car will rust away around the engine. Ludicrously expensive and difficult to get hold of outside of the main dealer network parts.

Fords, ditto, had a MK1 Focus that required major welding at 10 years old. Lovely car though.

Vauxhaul, very expensive parts. Wife had a newish Ashtray back in the early 00's, rear wheel bearing went, cost over £200 as a combined hub / bearing / ABS sensor unit wheras the same for a VW would have been £15 for the bearing.

BMW / Merc, they rust plus have stupidly expensive parts.

Volvo / Saab, lovely things that also don't rust but parts costs can be eye watering and difficult to come by.

Mid 00's onwards VAG stuff, not as good as the previous generation stuff, 2.0 diesels are particularly weak and VAG seems to have forgotten all they knew about rust proofing.


My advice therefore for shedding is obviously any mid 90's to mid 00's VAG vehicle, particularly the VW's and in particular any fitted with the 1.9 PD TDI engine. It might be a bit a bit more mundane than the default PH suggestions like Jap this / Saab that / Volvo the other etc but with an old VAG you stand the best chance of continuing to shed for a buttons budget. If you want an exotic or stand out car then that really isn't shedding. Use the money saved by doing mundane shedding on a weekend toy.

I read your write up, was a brilliant read spoiled by photobucket,

I share you fondness for the PD engine, i get great MPG and with a remap keeps up with most modern stuff..

[JohnnyMc]

Used to have a nice MCS bought for £15k, drove it for a few years - flogged it at auction for bugger all because nobody wants a car with the N14 engine. Fun but wasteful financially.

Had to take a couple of years off work due to health. Just before starting a phased return, bought a £600 EP Civic off my mum's mate. 1.4 litre with 38k miles from 2002. No history.

The car has done 20k miles in 7 months without ANYTHING including tyres somehow, and gets 45mpg despite me caning it along motorways every night at 90 in fifth (no sixth gear).

Cherry on the top: got clobbered by a colleague in office car park a couple of months ago and they insisted on giving me £500 and we agreed never to mention it again.

Car looks like a bag of ste, but suspect it will run like this for 100,000 miles. Brilliant.

[Hoofy]

keo said:

I would love go back to bangernonics. In a bit of a funny place though. I have a 2.0tdi Quattro a3. It’s done just over 100k and is probably worth £3-4K?
Not sure if it’s worth selling for that. Service history is spot on, flew through last mot and it’s got 4 nearly new michelin piolit sports on it.
I may as well just run this in the ground I suppose and keep looking after it. It’s boribg though!

Ditch finders on the rear wheels then!

[keo]

Haha

It’s just that I have got a reliable car which as long as I carry on looking after it I can’t see why it won’t see 150/200k

It’s a pain selling cars. If I sold it for £3000 and bought a car worth £1500 it hardly seams worth it. When I know what I have got is good. All be it very boring!

[jeremyh1]

BREAKDOWNS
WHATS THE MATTER WITH YOU PEOPLE

I am running old stuff all the time over hundreds of thousands of miles
If you look after them they wont let you down . There is less to go wrong on older vehicles
I have new vehicles on hire that sometimes go wrong with problems I have never heard of and it frightens me

[ian316]

keo said:

I would love go back to bangernonics. In a bit of a funny place though. I have a 2.0tdi Quattro a3. It’s done just over 100k and is probably worth £3-4K?
Not sure if it’s worth selling for that. Service history is spot on, flew through last mot and it’s got 4 nearly new michelin piolit sports on it.
I may as well just run this in the ground I suppose and keep looking after it. It’s boribg though!

At this point if you have a car you know the history of and reliability of you may as well stick with it

[Barchettaman]

Absolutely, as well as 'bangernomics', 'shedding' and 'shedding, Colin P-style', we have the sub-category of 'running a known but lesser-value vehicle into the ground'.

[bearman68]

lord trumpton said:

Yeah I totally understand the criteria for bangernomics it's just hard to go for it...by my nature I'm sadly into my car(s) being mint. I've always had fast, high-end cars too.

I might give it a go though just to see if it's a breath of fresh air. It can be tiring always worrying about stonechips and dents.

What's the bangernomics go to car? I'm thinking e39 5 series

No,definitely not. E39 takes loads of maintenance to make it run nicely. Anything starting with Toyota is a good default. Toyota Yaris, Toyota Corrolla, Avensis - you get the idea. Not the Avensis with the damn electric handbrake though. Mazda and Ford are good shouts as well.

[cobra kid]

cptsideways said:

Mine is 27 years old, has never failed an MOT!

A bloke at work had the first Picasso which had never failed an MOT. It's easy when you get the work done prior to the test.

[fooby]

I tend to treat my bangers as pretty disposable. If the car cost well under a grand it doesn't seem to make sense to spend £500 on a repair, but I may be making a mistake here.

My new banger is a £300 Civic 1.6. I definitely want to try the other approach of fixing every niggle and really getting some preventative maintenance in. Might end up with it being more like a £1000-£1500 car but I'll know it's not got any underlying time bombs waiting to strand me on the side of the A1. In my experience early 00's jap cars are amazing for bangernomics. A lot of them don't have the rust issues of the 90's jap cars, all the ones I've had are very easy to fix with just a socket set and parts are reasonable, but more expensive than a lot of comparable euro stuff. My first car was an MY2000 Golf 1.6, can't say that was a good bangernomics car at all unfortunately.

Edited by fooby on Wednesday 21st March 08:31

[jeremyh1]

cobra kid said:

A bloke at work had the first Picasso which had never failed an MOT. It's easy when you get the work done prior to the test.

My Saab is 22 years old and never fails an MOT but it is not luck or black magic you have to keep on top of things and sort them out before they become an issue

[layercake]

bangers all the way !! as said already, less to go wrong, old is better build imo, currently running a 2001 w203 cdi rust bucket but keeps on going, currently hitting 240k, had her when she was a few years old with 40k, park it where i want and not worry, people can't believe im running the same car for 15 years

[colin_p]

fooby said:

I tend to treat my bangers as pretty disposable. If the car cost well under a grand it doesn't seem to make sense to spend £500 on a repair, but I may be making a mistake here.

My new banger is a £300 Civic 1.6. I definitely want to try the other approach of fixing every niggle and really getting some preventative maintenance in. Might end up with it being more like a £1000-£1500 car but I'll know it's not got any underlying time bombs waiting to strand me on the side of the A1.

And if you can put the spannering time in yourself it will not be costly.

I always look at spending anything doing shedding against what a monthly lease payment would be on a new equivalent car. Just remember the £300 you could be spending every month, month after month, year after year.

Whatever the shed / banger, most can find themselves very well sorted for a couple of months worth of lease payments and then maybe a single lease payment equivalent a year for maintaining the thing.

[camshafted]

fooby said:

I tend to treat my bangers as pretty disposable. If the car cost well under a grand it doesn't seem to make sense to spend £500 on a repair, but I may be making a mistake here.

My new banger is a £300 Civic 1.6. I definitely want to try the other approach of fixing every niggle and really getting some preventative maintenance in. Might end up with it being more like a £1000-£1500 car but I'll know it's not got any underlying time bombs waiting to strand me on the side of the A1. In my experience early 00's jap cars are amazing for bangernomics. A lot of them don't have the rust issues of the 90's jap cars, all the ones I've had are very easy to fix with just a socket set and parts are reasonable, but more expensive than a lot of comparable euro stuff. My first car was an MY2000 Golf 1.6, can't say that was a good bangernomics car at all unfortunately.

Edited by fooby on Wednesday 21st March 08:31

What year and spec is the Civic? I'm running a 2001 1.6 Executive SE bought for £775. Had it almost 2 years and 25,000 miles. Planned to keep it for a few weeks, but it's such a good car and does everything it needs to do so well that I don't need to get rid. (WBAC value is £50...)

[Jaguar steve]

jeremyh1 said:

BREAKDOWNS
WHATS THE MATTER WITH YOU PEOPLE

I am running old stuff all the time over hundreds of thousands of miles
If you look after them they wont let you down . There is less to go wrong on older vehicles
I have new vehicles on hire that sometimes go wrong with problems I have never heard of and it frightens me

Me too. The deliberately engineered complexity and impossibility of repair of new cars frightens me as well. Seen the current Audi Q5 advert?
What sort of 'tard actually needs all that electronic bling and tinsel and driving aids to get them from A to B and more to the point who's going to be able to fix them when a grands worth of body processing module or pedestrian proximity sensor goes pop three weeks out of warranty?

I've been running sub £1000 cars as daily drivers since the early 1980s. Occasionally out of necessity but much more often out of choice.
In all that time and well north of half a million miles, apart from the odd flat battery and puncture I've had just three breakdowns, two of which I scrounged a lift home, returned with a handful of tools and fixed where the car had died.

[GeordieInExile]

grumpy52 said:

All my bangernomic favourites are actually going up in value ,
Volvo 850, s/v/c70s , Saabs , jag xj6 .
All could be had for a few hundreds just a short time ago , I did a quick search the other day and was amazed at how much they have gone up .
You lot have spoiled it for us now !

There are always 9-5 Aero HOTs out there for under a grand. And I do see 9000s for that price level too, and loads of OM 9-3s (including a fair few convertibles).

Dame Edna 9-5s and facelift NM 9-3 seem to have stabilised, weirdly.