RE: Jaguar's 400hp electric SUV unveiled
Discussion
CTE said:
I don`t think anyone has a clue about how much copper cabling will be required to transit the power to a sufficient network of recharging points to make these things anywhere near viable.
At present, when your fuel gauge is low, you pop into a service station and fill up...takes 5 minutes. The current status with EV`s is what 45 mins to 80% charge. Now I accept you can get round this by more careful planning etc, but I do not think this is the future...it is currently a backward step. All this is doing is moving the point of emissions from the vehicle to the power station. Domestic houses could of course have solar cells fitted to make it more viable, but some massive leaps in technology are still required.
Oh yes and no-one wants to talk about the emissions created producing the batteries and shipping the raw materials. All the politicians sprout how wonderful it is because the vehicle is electric and zero emissions...and the uneducated lap it up. Also in the background, the taxation system will change form fuel duty to pay per mile. No problem with creating cleaner vehicles by the way...just this is not the solution.
Even if you use coal dug out a pit to fuel them they are still 3-4* as efficient as digging oil out the ground, transporting it, then burning it in an engine.At present, when your fuel gauge is low, you pop into a service station and fill up...takes 5 minutes. The current status with EV`s is what 45 mins to 80% charge. Now I accept you can get round this by more careful planning etc, but I do not think this is the future...it is currently a backward step. All this is doing is moving the point of emissions from the vehicle to the power station. Domestic houses could of course have solar cells fitted to make it more viable, but some massive leaps in technology are still required.
Oh yes and no-one wants to talk about the emissions created producing the batteries and shipping the raw materials. All the politicians sprout how wonderful it is because the vehicle is electric and zero emissions...and the uneducated lap it up. Also in the background, the taxation system will change form fuel duty to pay per mile. No problem with creating cleaner vehicles by the way...just this is not the solution.
But we don't even use coal anymore, we use way more efficient fuel and it's only going to get MORE efficient.
I really rather like that, appart from the wallet damage, it is close to meeting my needs from a car.
But I can see a problem if electric cars end up -too- popular.
Its fine saying they can charge at 100kW or whatever, but those kW don't grow on trees...
If you replaced 80% of cars on the road with EVs, and they were alll plugged in at a mere 10kW, you'd exceed the total electric power production of the UK....
Yes I know 80% is a long way off, and they won't all be charging at once, even at 3am.
But given how close to maximum capacity the UK grid is running at times, where is the power going to come from to charge even one car in 10 at a relatively slow rate?
(basis of figures for nit-pickers: just over 25 million cars licenced according to stats on the .gov.uk website, and total Uk power production capacity in May 2017 again from gov.uk, less than 180GW. 20 million cars x 10kW charge rate, 200GW)
But I can see a problem if electric cars end up -too- popular.
Its fine saying they can charge at 100kW or whatever, but those kW don't grow on trees...
If you replaced 80% of cars on the road with EVs, and they were alll plugged in at a mere 10kW, you'd exceed the total electric power production of the UK....
Yes I know 80% is a long way off, and they won't all be charging at once, even at 3am.
But given how close to maximum capacity the UK grid is running at times, where is the power going to come from to charge even one car in 10 at a relatively slow rate?
(basis of figures for nit-pickers: just over 25 million cars licenced according to stats on the .gov.uk website, and total Uk power production capacity in May 2017 again from gov.uk, less than 180GW. 20 million cars x 10kW charge rate, 200GW)
Gojira said:
I really rather like that, appart from the wallet damage, it is close to meeting my needs from a car.
But I can see a problem if electric cars end up -too- popular.
Its fine saying they can charge at 100kW or whatever, but those kW don't grow on trees...
If you replaced 80% of cars on the road with EVs, and they were alll plugged in at a mere 10kW, you'd exceed the total electric power production of the UK....
Yes I know 80% is a long way off, and they won't all be charging at once, even at 3am.
But given how close to maximum capacity the UK grid is running at times, where is the power going to come from to charge even one car in 10 at a relatively slow rate?
(basis of figures for nit-pickers: just over 25 million cars licenced according to stats on the .gov.uk website, and total Uk power production capacity in May 2017 again from gov.uk, less than 180GW. 20 million cars x 10kW charge rate, 200GW)
Hence smart meters are being rolled out, peak demand times will be expensive and low demand will be cheap to spread out use of high demand appliances and car charging. Most cars will need a tiny top up each night and a huge percentage of cars do nothing each night. Maximum rate for domestic charging is normally 7kW at the moment. The Irish electricity board calculated that if all cars in Europe were electric and smart charged then 1% more generating capacity would be needed. Almost every EV introduced in teh last few years can be set to charge at specific times, so you plug in when you get home and it starts when it can. But I can see a problem if electric cars end up -too- popular.
Its fine saying they can charge at 100kW or whatever, but those kW don't grow on trees...
If you replaced 80% of cars on the road with EVs, and they were alll plugged in at a mere 10kW, you'd exceed the total electric power production of the UK....
Yes I know 80% is a long way off, and they won't all be charging at once, even at 3am.
But given how close to maximum capacity the UK grid is running at times, where is the power going to come from to charge even one car in 10 at a relatively slow rate?
(basis of figures for nit-pickers: just over 25 million cars licenced according to stats on the .gov.uk website, and total Uk power production capacity in May 2017 again from gov.uk, less than 180GW. 20 million cars x 10kW charge rate, 200GW)
t, stop it Gaydon)Gojira said:
I really rather like that, appart from the wallet damage, it is close to meeting my needs from a car.
But I can see a problem if electric cars end up -too- popular.
Its fine saying they can charge at 100kW or whatever, but those kW don't grow on trees...
If you replaced 80% of cars on the road with EVs, and they were alll plugged in at a mere 10kW, you'd exceed the total electric power production of the UK....
Yes I know 80% is a long way off, and they won't all be charging at once, even at 3am.
But given how close to maximum capacity the UK grid is running at times, where is the power going to come from to charge even one car in 10 at a relatively slow rate?
(basis of figures for nit-pickers: just over 25 million cars licenced according to stats on the .gov.uk website, and total Uk power production capacity in May 2017 again from gov.uk, less than 180GW. 20 million cars x 10kW charge rate, 200GW)
But that problem already exists with petrol cars. If everyone tried to fill up their tanks from empty at once we'd run out of petrol in minutes and it would take weeks for the refineries to catch up. The system only works because they don't - the average car in the UK needs 20 miles worth of power (be it petrol or electricity) per day; the grid probably can't cope with providing that for all vehicles but it's nowhere near as far off as people make out. Given that the huge majority of cars are likely too be charged over-night when other demand is low, we'd need perhaps 10-15% more total grid capacity if every single car in the UK went electric overnight. But I can see a problem if electric cars end up -too- popular.
Its fine saying they can charge at 100kW or whatever, but those kW don't grow on trees...
If you replaced 80% of cars on the road with EVs, and they were alll plugged in at a mere 10kW, you'd exceed the total electric power production of the UK....
Yes I know 80% is a long way off, and they won't all be charging at once, even at 3am.
But given how close to maximum capacity the UK grid is running at times, where is the power going to come from to charge even one car in 10 at a relatively slow rate?
(basis of figures for nit-pickers: just over 25 million cars licenced according to stats on the .gov.uk website, and total Uk power production capacity in May 2017 again from gov.uk, less than 180GW. 20 million cars x 10kW charge rate, 200GW)
Realistically we're fifty years off that at best, it really shouldn't be beyond possibility to increase our grid capacity by 10-15% over the next 50 years.
Edited by kambites on Friday 2nd March 17:09
Gojira said:
I really rather like that, appart from the wallet damage, it is close to meeting my needs from a car.
But I can see a problem if electric cars end up -too- popular.
Its fine saying they can charge at 100kW or whatever, but those kW don't grow on trees...
If you replaced 80% of cars on the road with EVs, and they were alll plugged in at a mere 10kW, you'd exceed the total electric power production of the UK....
Yes I know 80% is a long way off, and they won't all be charging at once, even at 3am.
But given how close to maximum capacity the UK grid is running at times, where is the power going to come from to charge even one car in 10 at a relatively slow rate?
(basis of figures for nit-pickers: just over 25 million cars licenced according to stats on the .gov.uk website, and total Uk power production capacity in May 2017 again from gov.uk, less than 180GW. 20 million cars x 10kW charge rate, 200GW)
We use a *HUGE* amount of energy to refine petrol and diesel, so all that power will be free to charge up EVs.But I can see a problem if electric cars end up -too- popular.
Its fine saying they can charge at 100kW or whatever, but those kW don't grow on trees...
If you replaced 80% of cars on the road with EVs, and they were alll plugged in at a mere 10kW, you'd exceed the total electric power production of the UK....
Yes I know 80% is a long way off, and they won't all be charging at once, even at 3am.
But given how close to maximum capacity the UK grid is running at times, where is the power going to come from to charge even one car in 10 at a relatively slow rate?
(basis of figures for nit-pickers: just over 25 million cars licenced according to stats on the .gov.uk website, and total Uk power production capacity in May 2017 again from gov.uk, less than 180GW. 20 million cars x 10kW charge rate, 200GW)
What you are saying has basically been disproved several times even the grid itself issued a press release saying it was not true. Still though here we are again.
Ok so there is spare grid capacity at night, so now the generation plants will be running flat all of the time...producing no emissions? By the way why are wind farms etc zero emissions... how much co2 is used in making them, transporting them, erecting them at sea...where the vast majority are located. Sure it’s less that a coal fired power station but it’s not green.
Anyhow in slight contradiction to what I said earlier, I can see EV’s working well in an urban environment, which is where most SUV’s live...spot on JLR!
Anyhow in slight contradiction to what I said earlier, I can see EV’s working well in an urban environment, which is where most SUV’s live...spot on JLR!
jjwilde said:
Gojira said:
I really rather like that, appart from the wallet damage, it is close to meeting my needs from a car.
But I can see a problem if electric cars end up -too- popular.
Its fine saying they can charge at 100kW or whatever, but those kW don't grow on trees...
If you replaced 80% of cars on the road with EVs, and they were alll plugged in at a mere 10kW, you'd exceed the total electric power production of the UK....
Yes I know 80% is a long way off, and they won't all be charging at once, even at 3am.
But given how close to maximum capacity the UK grid is running at times, where is the power going to come from to charge even one car in 10 at a relatively slow rate?
(basis of figures for nit-pickers: just over 25 million cars licenced according to stats on the .gov.uk website, and total Uk power production capacity in May 2017 again from gov.uk, less than 180GW. 20 million cars x 10kW charge rate, 200GW)
We use a *HUGE* amount of energy to refine petrol and diesel, so all that power will be free to charge up EVs.But I can see a problem if electric cars end up -too- popular.
Its fine saying they can charge at 100kW or whatever, but those kW don't grow on trees...
If you replaced 80% of cars on the road with EVs, and they were alll plugged in at a mere 10kW, you'd exceed the total electric power production of the UK....
Yes I know 80% is a long way off, and they won't all be charging at once, even at 3am.
But given how close to maximum capacity the UK grid is running at times, where is the power going to come from to charge even one car in 10 at a relatively slow rate?
(basis of figures for nit-pickers: just over 25 million cars licenced according to stats on the .gov.uk website, and total Uk power production capacity in May 2017 again from gov.uk, less than 180GW. 20 million cars x 10kW charge rate, 200GW)
What you are saying has basically been disproved several times even the grid itself issued a press release saying it was not true. Still though here we are again.
I know that oil refining is an energy intensive business, but I'd be more than a bit surprised if it is even 10% of that 200GW.
But I'm -not- saying it will be a problem next week
But if we -don't- plan for it, there will be problems - probably not until I'm too old and doddery to drive, but problems there will be, if the generating capacity and distribution network isn't improved to cope with the rise in demand.
Gojira said:
but I'd be more than a bit surprised if it is even 10% of that 200GW.
Well no of course it's not, but nor would EV charging ever get near 200GW. Here's the national grid's take on it: https://www.nationalgrid.com/uk/electric-dreams-fu...
Their worst case estimate is 48TWh per year for EVs by 2050 which is a mean load of 5.5GW, or around 10% of the grid's current capacity. Obviosuly there will be some fluctuation but to an extent that can be managed to variable pricing. Worst case we've got another 30 years to build one extra nuclear power station to cover the extra demand. Of course wind is now cheaper than nuclear and EVs are a perfect usecase for it since most charging will occur at night when it's windiest; their batteries might also be able to help manage the load on the grid if the logistics can be worked out.
Edited by kambites on Friday 2nd March 18:54
kambites said:
Gojira said:
but I'd be more than a bit surprised if it is even 10% of that 200GW.
Well no of course it's not, but nor would EV charging ever get near 200GW. Here's the national grid's take on it: https://www.nationalgrid.com/uk/electric-dreams-fu...
Their worst case estimate is 48TWh per year for EVs by 2050 which is a mean load of 5.5GW, or around 10% of the grid's current capacity. Obviosuly there will be some fluctuation but to an extent that can be managed to variable pricing. Worst case we've got another 30 years to build one extra nuclear power station to cover the extra demand. Of course wind is now cheaper than nuclear and EVs are a perfect usecase for it since most charging will occur at night when it's windiest; their batteries might also be able to help manage the load on the grid if the logistics can be worked out.
Edited by kambites on Friday 2nd March 18:54
CTE said:
Ok so there is spare grid capacity at night, so now the generation plants will be running flat all of the time...producing no emissions? By the way why are wind farms etc zero emissions... how much co2 is used in making them, transporting them, erecting them at sea...where the vast majority are located. Sure it’s less that a coal fired power station but it’s not green
But most of us don't want to go back to living in mud huts. All human actions have impacts, it is about minimising them. There is data a smart network would cope just fine in the UK with the current power generation.. Tests are underway. Millions of high capacity car batteries grid connected etc would be good.
As for the Jag battery I'm assuming it has good spec and thermal management so should last fine.
As for the Jag battery I'm assuming it has good spec and thermal management so should last fine.
DonkeyApple said:
Tuna said:
Mildly amusing that some Tesla enthusiasts were asserting that the mainstream manufacturers would take years to catch up with this new fangled electric technology.
Seems like a thoroughly credible offering.
Indeed. The reality is that they haven’t been behind at all but just waiting for there to be a market and the demand as they run different business models to Silicon Valley start-ups. Seems like a thoroughly credible offering.
It would be folly to ever think that the likes of major manufacturers would have the slightest issue in designing a floor plan and fitting electric motors and batteries in it and then trimming it out and fitting all the electric toys.
The new areas will be in the autonomous driving but the majors have all been working on this stuff as well.
dvs_dave said:
Not a Tesla fanboy, but I’m not sure all this gloating is warranted. The Model S has been on the road since 2012. When is the iPace actually going to be on the road.....2019? By any measure it has most certainly taken years (best part of a decade!) for the mainstream to come out with anything even remotely comparable.
No gloating at all, I'm pleased to see the market growing. The comment came from discussions about Tesla's huge market evaluation late last year, when a few people were claiming that the mainstream manufacturers were incapable of producing a 'mainstream EV' this decade.Tuna said:
No gloating at all, I'm pleased to see the market growing. The comment came from discussions about Tesla's huge market evaluation late last year, when a few people were claiming that the mainstream manufacturers were incapable of producing a 'mainstream EV' this decade.
Presumably anyone saying that was also neglecting to notice that Nissan have been producing a mainstream EV for years? Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff