RE: Jaguar's 400hp electric SUV unveiled

[kambites]

l354uge said:

You've got punters with money who are stuck somewhere for 3-6 hours, they're going to get bored of Costa and waitrose soon enough.

3-6 hours? The i-Pace will charge at 100kw, which will give you roughly 150 miles of real-world range for half an hour of charging. Currently the non-Tesla fast chargers in the UK charge at 50kw whichis still 80 miles per half hour. Tesla's chargers can do something like 150kw, which works out at 200+ miles for half an hour of charging.

Of course it's still slower than filling a petrol car up, but you're not talking about hours unless there's a big queue for chargers.


People aren't going to be buying EVs for 200+ mile journeys until they're completely convinced the fast-charging network will support them.

[Tuna]

DonkeyApple said:

Indeed. The reality is that they haven’t been behind at all but just waiting for there to be a market and the demand as they run different business models to Silicon Valley start-ups.

It would be folly to ever think that the likes of major manufacturers would have the slightest issue in designing a floor plan and fitting electric motors and batteries in it and then trimming it out and fitting all the electric toys.

The new areas will be in the autonomous driving but the majors have all been working on this stuff as well.

Whilst I tend to agree with your assessments, that's the one point I'm cynical on. We're just not seeing the break though that moves us beyond driver assist to true autonomy. There are early signs that deep neural nets (which is what a lot of the current gen stuff is based on) are hitting the wall when it comes to the 'next level' of intelligence required by systems that make independent decisions.

[stuckmojo]

Love it. Very smart move by Jaguar.

[RacerMike]

l354uge said:

People charging their electric cars, for the near future really fast charging is going to be rare.

Even on a 50kWh charger, you'd get well over 50% battery in less than an hour. And there are 50kWh chargers at every Welcome Break, and a tonne in and around Milton Keynes. Have a look at https://openchargemap.org if you're interested....

Genuinely, fast chargers, and indeed public chargers are in no way rare. Once you look it's really quite astonishing that so many locations have appeared without you actually noticing!

[sjg]

Bryans69 said:

Its interesting, but range / charging still an issue if its the main car. Last Saturday, did (admittedly unusual) round trip to London to Skegness and back, 170 mile each way. Until you get to a point where you can charge where you park, rather than having to find a hopefully empty charging point, it doesn't work.

I know that 99% of our journeys are less than that, and I could hire an ICE car for those that are, but if I'm spending £60k plus on a car I don't want the hassle. Give me 400 miles and easy charging anywhere and I'm in.

Out of interest, would that 1% of journeys be worth a 15% (or more) uplift in purchase price for the extra battery capacity?

In any car 170 miles for me would include one stop (with family maybe more than one). Just on today's infrastructure if I stopped at Peterborough services for 20 mins and used a 50kw rapid charger that would get an extra 50 miles (conservative estimate) in - in an i-Pace (let's say 250 miles realistic) that would mean arriving with about 130 miles of range left. Even if you couldn't charge while you were there, a similar short top-up at a services on the way home will be enough to get home.

Remember the i-Pace is capable of taking charge three times faster than that so in the future as the chargers get better you'd get more miles of range in while you stretch your legs or get a cup of tea at the services. Also much more likely in future to find convenient parking at the destination where you can slow charge while you do other things.

Would the convenience of not needing to make that stop be worth an extra 10k or more on the purchase price? Probably not to me.

[hornbaek]

Tesla prepared the market (costing then billions) and with the others catching up fast, Tesla will never reach profitability.

[RobDickinson]

Tuna said:

Whilst I tend to agree with your assessments, that's the one point I'm cynical on. We're just not seeing the break though that moves us beyond driver assist to true autonomy. There are early signs that deep neural nets (which is what a lot of the current gen stuff is based on) are hitting the wall when it comes to the 'next level' of intelligence required by systems that make independent decisions.

We certainly are seeing progress. There are waymo taxis in the US working completely driverless. California just changed laws to allow driverless cars. Things are moving even if you don't see it.

Sure they can't cope with everywhere just yet but it'll build up

[kambites]

I'm not quite sure why autonomy gets equated with (or evne linked to) electrification. They seem to be entirely independent things to me.

[Tuna]

RobDickinson said:

Tuna said:

Mildly amusing that some Tesla enthusiasts were asserting that the mainstream manufacturers would take years to catch up with this new fangled electric technology.

Seems like a thoroughly credible offering.

Model X was launched in 2015 this is the first competitor 3 years later, another (etron) later in the year otherwise 2019 or 2020 for much else. I'd say thats years.

These were conversations late last year where people were insistent that Tesla would have have a couple of years of Model 3 production before the mainstream manufacturers even had an major offering, let alone one designed from the ground up to be electric.

[RacerMike]

sjg said:

Out of interest, would that 1% of journeys be worth a 15% (or more) uplift in purchase price for the extra battery capacity?

In any car 170 miles for me would include one stop (with family maybe more than one). Just on today's infrastructure if I stopped at Peterborough services for 20 mins and used a 50kw rapid charger that would get an extra 50 miles in - in an i-Pace (let's say 250 miles realistic) that would mean arriving with about 130 miles of range left. Even if you couldn't charge while you were there, a similar short top-up at a services on the way home will be enough to get home.

Remember the i-Pace is capable of taking charge three times faster than that so in the future as the chargers get better you'd get more miles of range in while you stretch your legs or get a cup of tea at the services. Also much more likely in future to find convenient parking at the destination where you can slow charge while you do other things.

Would the convenience of not needing to make that stop be worth an extra 10k or more on the purchase price? Probably not to me.

Very good comments, and I genuinely think, having done some miles in an EV car in the UK, it's surprising just how far a 250 mile range EV will get you without any sense of worry at all. It says it all really that my own car has a 210mile range on its tank on a good day, and I fill it up once a week? And if I do a longer journey I probably stop for at least 30mins in total as I usually need a coffee after 90mins of driving....

Really, genuinely interested in the prospect of a decent useable electric car, as long as I can still have something wild and crazy to enjoy driving at weekends. It's close to free motoring, and by all accounts, they're bloody fast. But like you say....it's big money to spend, even without the cost of fuel...

[RobDickinson]

Tuna said:

These were conversations late last year where people were insistent that Tesla would have have a couple of years of Model 3 production before the mainstream manufacturers even had an major offering, let alone one designed from the ground up to be electric.

I dont think there will be mainstream competition for the model 3 until 2020..



By mainstream i mean top tier cars in a similar market. an i5 or the vw id stuff etc.

You can buy a bold or leaf now and the 60kw ones will have reasonable range later this year.

Edited by RobDickinson on Thursday 1st March 22:17

[kambites]

Tuna said:

These were conversations late last year where people were insistent that Tesla would have have a couple of years of Model 3 production before the mainstream manufacturers even had an major offering, let alone one designed from the ground up to be electric.

This car isn't really the counter to that though - this is twice the price of a Model-3.

One could argue that the 60kwh Leaf is mainstream competition for the Model-3; not the same market space but similar drivetrain technology and price. We might see a Model-3 competitor (in terms of both market segment and drive train) from Hyundai in 2019 but I can't see anyone else getting there until 2020+.

[hyphen]

Tuna said:

RobDickinson said:

Tuna said:

Mildly amusing that some Tesla enthusiasts were asserting that the mainstream manufacturers would take years to catch up with this new fangled electric technology.

Seems like a thoroughly credible offering.

Model X was launched in 2015 this is the first competitor 3 years later, another (etron) later in the year otherwise 2019 or 2020 for much else. I'd say thats years.

These were conversations late last year where people were insistent that Tesla would have have a couple of years of Model 3 production before the mainstream manufacturers even had an major offering, let alone one designed from the ground up to be electric.

Audi's all electric suv offering, that is due this year for first deliveries, has been in development for many years.

It appointed Samsung and LG as battery suppliers for the car in 2015 ago https://www.audiusa.com/newsroom/news/press-releas...

So they have been at it since Model X was announced. Neither Jag nor Audi are competing with Model 3 yet though so technically correct that Model 3 has a few years before more competition.

Edited by hyphen on Thursday 1st March 22:21

[ajprice]

RobDickinson said:

I dont think there will be mainstream competition for the model 3 until 2020..

The way Model 3 production isn't happening at any meaningful rate, there may not be a RHD Model 3 here until 2020.

[RobDickinson]

ajprice said:

The way Model 3 production isn't happening at any meaningful rate, there may not be a RHD Model 3 here until 2020.

Well that's possible lol.
Probably 2019 at some point.
I'm more interested in the model y but that'll be 2022 or something and there will be plenty of competition then.

Tesla exists to create change more EV's is what they want.

[Condi]

DonkeyApple said:

My only concern is that the range still doesn’t feel good enough as I don’t want to spend my journey into London driving like a hypermiler. I don’t want to compromise in any way and the car has to make my life easier and not add any inconveniences or negative changes. But it seems tantalisingly close.

Thats a bit naive IMO.

Yes it has negatives - limited range, for example.

But you've got to weight that up against the positives which exist over an ICE car;

0 tax
0 congestion charge
Much lower company car tax if you're getting it through work
In future diesels will get banned from many city centers, electrics wont
Much cheaper to run (fuel costs)
Much lower servicing cost
etc etc

So discussing the one negative an electric car has without mentioning the positives is pretty pointless IMO.




I will not be buying one because Im poor. If I was rich however, or wanting a company car, it would be right up there.

[hyphen]

Condi said:

Thats a bit naive IMO.

Yes it has negatives - limited range, for example.

But you've got to weight that up against the positives which exist over an ICE car;

0 tax
0 congestion charge
Much lower company car tax if you're getting it through work
In future diesels will get banned from many city centers, electrics wont
Much cheaper to run (fuel costs)
Much lower servicing cost
etc etc

So discussing the one negative an electric car has without mentioning the positives is pretty pointless IMO.




I will not be buying one because Im poor. If I was rich however, or wanting a company car, it would be right up there.

Rules changed a year ago, all cars above £40k (valued at List price not price paid and inc price of options) now pay premium road tax for 5 years, electric or not.

[DonkeyApple]

Tuna said:

Whilst I tend to agree with your assessments, that's the one point I'm cynical on. We're just not seeing the break though that moves us beyond driver assist to true autonomy. There are early signs that deep neural nets (which is what a lot of the current gen stuff is based on) are hitting the wall when it comes to the 'next level' of intelligence required by systems that make independent decisions.

Oh I agree. I don’t think we are anywhere near having actual autonomous driving that works in an environment heavily populated by people.

For starters high density cities only function because pedestrians have a reasonable fear of death or injury if they walk into the road, remove that fear and cars simply won’t be able to move. But what I meant was that companies like Toyota or VW are not going to be lagging Tesla in any meaningful way in regards to this technology.

[RobDickinson]

We already have self driving cars in cities they are better at avoiding people than humans.

As for other makes if they don't have their own self driving they'll do what they always do, buy in from Nvidia or Mobileye etc.

[DonkeyApple]

kambites said:

l354uge said:

You've got punters with money who are stuck somewhere for 3-6 hours, they're going to get bored of Costa and waitrose soon enough.

3-6 hours? The i-Pace will charge at 100kw, which will give you roughly 150 miles of real-world range for half an hour of charging. Currently the non-Tesla fast chargers in the UK charge at 50kw whichis still 80 miles per half hour. Tesla's chargers can do something like 150kw, which works out at 200+ miles for half an hour of charging.

Of course it's still slower than filling a petrol car up, but you're not talking about hours unless there's a big queue for chargers.


People aren't going to be buying EVs for 200+ mile journeys until they're completely convinced the fast-charging network will support them.

True but who wants to spend any time in a service station? I find them terrible venues to be avoided at all costs. I agree with the poster above that the arrival of premium EVs could see ‘lounges’ being offered.

The amusing aspect being where the lounge sets the cut off level between treasured customers and flea ridden oiks. You don’t want someone with poverty spec trim on their Cavalier walking in!!