RE: Jaguar's 400hp electric SUV unveiled
Discussion
Generally all for EV and this seems an attractive package. But if the takeup of EV really takes off soon, the charging infrastructure looks like it won’t cope.
Once all the charging points are occupied at the motorway services what do you do? Lurk around waiting for the space to be freed up? Who’s next in queue anyway?
All this stuff needs to be taken seriously IMHO.
It was fine when there were just a few early adopters whining about.
Once all the charging points are occupied at the motorway services what do you do? Lurk around waiting for the space to be freed up? Who’s next in queue anyway?
All this stuff needs to be taken seriously IMHO.
It was fine when there were just a few early adopters whining about.
I like this! Best all round ev right now . Couple of things though a) why an suv? Surely it could have been a little smaller ( golf size ) and therefore quicker and more range or is it big because of what’s inside and no ones gonna be using it off road b) as electric cars become more common will your local independent garage be able to work / fix them or are you tied to main dealers forever c) if you go and visit relatives / friend for Christmas will they Mind you charging it up when you’re there cos if not you’re journey home will be free every time
RobDickinson said:
We already have self driving cars in cities they are better at avoiding people than humans.
As for other makes if they don't have their own self driving they'll do what they always do, buy in from Nvidia or Mobileye etc.
You only have to read the current research on failure modes for AI to see that 'better' is only possible in very limited circumstances:As for other makes if they don't have their own self driving they'll do what they always do, buy in from Nvidia or Mobileye etc.
Note that the 'slightly smudged' signs on the bottom row actually read completely incorrectly to AI systems - such as 80 signs reading as Stop.
More here https://arxiv.org/abs/1802.06430
Research into adversarial models is only just starting. This isn't just about deliberate attacks, but the subtle way that neural networks can mistake scenes for potentially lethal information.
Condi said:
DonkeyApple said:
My only concern is that the range still doesn’t feel good enough as I don’t want to spend my journey into London driving like a hypermiler. I don’t want to compromise in any way and the car has to make my life easier and not add any inconveniences or negative changes. But it seems tantalisingly close.
Thats a bit naive IMO. Yes it has negatives - limited range, for example.
But you've got to weight that up against the positives which exist over an ICE car;
0 tax
0 congestion charge
Much lower company car tax if you're getting it through work
In future diesels will get banned from many city centers, electrics wont
Much cheaper to run (fuel costs)
Much lower servicing cost
etc etc
So discussing the one negative an electric car has without mentioning the positives is pretty pointless IMO.
I will not be buying one because Im poor. If I was rich however, or wanting a company car, it would be right up there.
The points you raise don’t have any relevance to me. I already have cars that have zero VED and are exempt from the ULEZ. I don’t buy through companies. I don’t have diesels. And I don’t care at all about running or servicing costs.
For me the pure EV is about offering additional convenience above a generic runabout. I would see charging away from home as an emergency facility. And I think it’s absolutely insane to pay £60k for a car and then worry about a few hundred quid a worth of taxes or think saving them is of any relevance. At that sort of price level you’re hardly buying prudently or sensibly.
swisstoni said:
Generally all for EV and this seems an attractive package. But if the takeup of EV really takes off soon, the charging infrastructure looks like it won’t cope.
Once all the charging points are occupied at the motorway services what do you do? Lurk around waiting for the space to be freed up? Who’s next in queue anyway?
All this stuff needs to be taken seriously IMHO.
It was fine when there were just a few early adopters whining about.
I don’t think charging points are going to be the issue if demand for EVs really takes off in the short to medium term. The real problem is going to be getting enough batteries to meet the demand. The lag in that sector is years. Once all the charging points are occupied at the motorway services what do you do? Lurk around waiting for the space to be freed up? Who’s next in queue anyway?
All this stuff needs to be taken seriously IMHO.
It was fine when there were just a few early adopters whining about.
But also, I think most buyers of EVs will be people who charge domestically and see commercial charging as a fall back not a daily requirement to enable use. It will be at the bottom end of the market as for those EVs to be affordable they must remove batteries so owners will be much more reliant on commercial charging networks but I’m not sure that is going to happen for quite some time as EVs at that level are way more expensive than ICE. Hybrids are going to infill at the bottom of the market for at least a decade.
I do 25k+ a year in my daily due to work. I often do 400 miles plus in a day. I’ve got a deposit on a model 3. My bladder can go little more than about 150 miles which is the limiting factor over battery range. My current Mini diesel will do 350 miles on a tank but I’ve never managed to go brimmed to empty without at least one comfort break.
I’m not concerned about running an EV.
I’m not concerned about running an EV.
kainedog said:
a) why an suv? Surely it could have been a little smaller ( golf size ) and therefore quicker and more range or is it big because of what’s inside and no ones gonna be using it off road
b) as electric cars become more common will your local independent garage be able to work / fix them or are you tied to main dealers forever
c) if you go and visit relatives / friend for Christmas will they Mind you charging it up when you’re there cos if not you’re journey home will be free every time
a - because its larger/heavier/more expensive so can hold the large battery pack and cope with the costb) as electric cars become more common will your local independent garage be able to work / fix them or are you tied to main dealers forever
c) if you go and visit relatives / friend for Christmas will they Mind you charging it up when you’re there cos if not you’re journey home will be free every time
b - they wont need anywhere as much work, the suspension/brakes etc will be the same but yes car mechanics will have to adapt to the high voltage systems
c - you'd need to be at a relatives a long time to charge this up via a normal plug! 3kw would take 30 hours or more. cost wont be much though , 9 quid or something.
DonkeyApple said:
But also, I think most buyers of EVs will be people who charge domestically and see commercial charging as a fall back not a daily requirement to enable use.
This. In general you start the day with a 'full tank', an average commute will use 5-15kwh easily charged overnight even from a standard 13amp plug.
With 300 mile range you would need to recharge at your destination or somewhere if you are on a long trip
If you are a sales rep doing 500 miles a day every day then its probably still not your thing.
RobDickinson said:
We already have self driving cars in cities they are better at avoiding people than humans.
As for other makes if they don't have their own self driving they'll do what they always do, buy in from Nvidia or Mobileye etc.
Exactly. They are good at avoiding people. That’s there problem. As for other makes if they don't have their own self driving they'll do what they always do, buy in from Nvidia or Mobileye etc.
Go and try and cross Oxford Street tomorrow and see how well that would work. Watch something like the Duke St junction and see what happens when a driver hesitated as a pedestrian ignores the lights and walks out.
There are whole junctions in the heart of London that only work because of the inherent fear of injury. Remove that fear from pedestrians by having cars that will stop for them and you can say goodbye to any chance of driving around.
And this is in an environment where pedestrians know that the car may not stop. Once you have cars that will definitely stop for pedestrians then it’s game over outside of Canada.
RobDickinson said:
DonkeyApple said:
But also, I think most buyers of EVs will be people who charge domestically and see commercial charging as a fall back not a daily requirement to enable use.
This. In general you start the day with a 'full tank', an average commute will use 5-15kwh easily charged overnight even from a standard 13amp plug.
One of the most interesting aspects is that although it is a little smaller than the 100D Model X and so a bit lighter it is getting pretty much the same range and performance using 90kw of batteries. I don’t know who Jaguar’s battery tech partner is but this does show that the tech is at least equal and that’s from starting later and investing less.
And it’s difficult to reconcile the price disparity between the two cars with the X being almost twice as expensive. That is an immense contrast and it’s hard to see why the X is so expensive unless Jaguar have got their basic costs very wrong?
And it’s difficult to reconcile the price disparity between the two cars with the X being almost twice as expensive. That is an immense contrast and it’s hard to see why the X is so expensive unless Jaguar have got their basic costs very wrong?
DonkeyApple said:
One of the most interesting aspects is that although it is a little smaller than the 100D Model X and so a bit lighter it is getting pretty much the same range and performance using 90kw of batteries. I don’t know who Jaguar’s battery tech partner is but this does show that the tech is at least equal and that’s from starting later and investing less.
And it’s difficult to reconcile the price disparity between the two cars with the X being almost twice as expensive. That is an immense contrast and it’s hard to see why the X is so expensive unless Jaguar have got their basic costs very wrong?
It'll be interesting to see what Tesla's share price does over the next few weeks. We've been told that they had a unique position in the industry and were doing what no-one else could do at this stage.And it’s difficult to reconcile the price disparity between the two cars with the X being almost twice as expensive. That is an immense contrast and it’s hard to see why the X is so expensive unless Jaguar have got their basic costs very wrong?
It’s off over 4% since the announcement but to be honest the main market is off about 1.5% and you’d expect very high premium stocks like Tesla to lead a charge down so I don’t think you can read too much in.
The delays in the Model 3 is the far bigger problem. Over the last couple of years Cobalt prices have tripled, Lithium nearly doubled and other materials increased and the delays all eat into the projected margins to the point that the 25% gross margin quoted in 2016 is set to be almost fully eroded by the time they get to their 10,000 units a week level if the trend continues.
But I think both Audi and Merc have their EVs hitting the market this year and you have to guess that they’ll be pricing to compete against Jag rather than Tesla.
The next few years are going to be really interesting especially as you can see with this Jag the practical benefits on packaging of the EV.
The delays in the Model 3 is the far bigger problem. Over the last couple of years Cobalt prices have tripled, Lithium nearly doubled and other materials increased and the delays all eat into the projected margins to the point that the 25% gross margin quoted in 2016 is set to be almost fully eroded by the time they get to their 10,000 units a week level if the trend continues.
But I think both Audi and Merc have their EVs hitting the market this year and you have to guess that they’ll be pricing to compete against Jag rather than Tesla.
The next few years are going to be really interesting especially as you can see with this Jag the practical benefits on packaging of the EV.
DonkeyApple said:
One of the most interesting aspects is that although it is a little smaller than the 100D Model X and so a bit lighter it is getting pretty much the same range and performance using 90kw of batteries. I don’t know who Jaguar’s battery tech partner is but this does show that the tech is at least equal and that’s from starting later and investing less.
With EVs its really down to drag etc its not hard to get similar range - its smaller and lighter suspect a better drag coefficient so not surprising. DonkeyApple said:
And it’s difficult to reconcile the price disparity between the two cars with the X being almost twice as expensive. That is an immense contrast and it’s hard to see why the X is so expensive unless Jaguar have got their basic costs very wrong?
X75D is £70k with air suspension, pano roof , power doors and tail lift, 20" wheels etc.X100D is £87k with more range etc
Jag 1st edition is what £81k? base of £64k which is basic as f
k (my outlander has a better spec).If you spec up the jag its not really much if any vcheaper.
This is probably the build Id go for in comparison to the x75/90D
https://build.jaguar/16972D54
£80,030 on the road.
Cant really compare it to the p100D model that (and the equivalent model S) cost a lot more.
https://build.jaguar/16972D54
£80,030 on the road.
Cant really compare it to the p100D model that (and the equivalent model S) cost a lot more.
Until the battery aspect of electric cars becomes a separate commodity, I don't see them replacing fuel powered cars. Forty-five minutes at a station? No way. You should be able to drive into a station and have your battery exchanged quicker than it takes to pump fuel into a car. When that happens, fuel powered cars will be replaced quickly.
And "with all its falcon-door silliness" as a criticism of the X? No way. Stuff like that makes life fun and interesting. Oh, the silliness of the 300sl gullwing.
And "with all its falcon-door silliness" as a criticism of the X? No way. Stuff like that makes life fun and interesting. Oh, the silliness of the 300sl gullwing.
Battery swapping isn't going to happen. No one is working on it.
We're going to have 350kw charging soon and that would charge this kind of car pretty damned quick.
Imo the X gull wing doors are daft. Slow and terrible in the rain dump water into the cabin and soak the passengers. I like the idea, the use isn't great
We're going to have 350kw charging soon and that would charge this kind of car pretty damned quick.
Imo the X gull wing doors are daft. Slow and terrible in the rain dump water into the cabin and soak the passengers. I like the idea, the use isn't great
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