RE: Toyota GT86 v Peugeot Sport 208 GTI
Discussion
LordGrover said:
LasseV said:
What went wrong about modding the gt86?
A few things really:- ARBs were a big mistake - made it far too rigid and crashy for day-to-day use. I didn't understand that properly and blamed the lowering springs. Switched back to stock springs and still lousy ride. (Finally got it right with stock ARBs and Bilstein coilovers, but I'd started to mistrust it by then after the engine seized).
- My combination of exhaust and manifold improved performance but made it loud and shouty.
- Never sure whether the mapping was a factor in the engine seizing. Obvs, everyone involved said no, but...
- Various cosmetic changes were just for the sake of change really and added nothing.
I also have a M135i and get about 25-30mpg out of it but I’m fortunate in that I don’t do many miles so it doesn’t bother me.
I tend not to modify cars much these days if at all as it often results in different compromises in different ways, I’m not against mods I just think you have to understand there’s usually compromises and it’s useful to know if you can live with them by experiencing a car with the same/similar setup.
When I was in the Impreza world so many would build high spec cars and then sell them and I didn’t understand for a long time why and it was for many reasons which are similar to LG’s.
Scobblelotcher said:
When I was in the Impreza world so many would build high spec cars and then sell them and I didn’t understand for a long time why and it was for many reasons which are similar to LG’s.
Happens all the time, people underestimate the costs of doing the job properly, buy crap unmatched parts and make a dogs dinner of it.I have this trouble with people modifying their old Alfas.
They just play "Pick and Mix" in the online catalogue and the resulting order looks like a jumble sale and usually features full race suspension and 6 pot front brakes for a car that's probably only going to get as far as the car park at the US Grand Prix.
Trying to help them through the process so they end up with a car that they actually want to drive is quite difficult but very rewarding when you get that "Whoo hoo!" email when the car's finished.
They just play "Pick and Mix" in the online catalogue and the resulting order looks like a jumble sale and usually features full race suspension and 6 pot front brakes for a car that's probably only going to get as far as the car park at the US Grand Prix.
Trying to help them through the process so they end up with a car that they actually want to drive is quite difficult but very rewarding when you get that "Whoo hoo!" email when the car's finished.
Mound Dawg said:
I have this trouble with people modifying their old Alfas.
They just play "Pick and Mix" in the online catalogue and the resulting order looks like a jumble sale and usually features full race suspension and 6 pot front brakes for a car that's probably only going to get as far as the car park at the US Grand Prix.
Trying to help them through the process so they end up with a car that they actually want to drive is quite difficult but very rewarding when you get that "Whoo hoo!" email when the car's finished.
Although, having said all that MD, have you seen that 3.2 litre 75 featured in the latest 'Auto Italia' mag?They just play "Pick and Mix" in the online catalogue and the resulting order looks like a jumble sale and usually features full race suspension and 6 pot front brakes for a car that's probably only going to get as far as the car park at the US Grand Prix.
Trying to help them through the process so they end up with a car that they actually want to drive is quite difficult but very rewarding when you get that "Whoo hoo!" email when the car's finished.
It's made as a track car but I do really like it
james_gt3rs said:
jsf said:
ARB's do affect ride quality on anything but a surface that affects both interlinked wheels evenly, which is never on UK roads.
My VX220 ARB is about 3 times as stiff as OEM, no adverse effects for me...ARB's are a simple device, they link the two sides of the car by a torsion spring. When one wheel moves into compression, the spring on that side of the car is compressed and has a resistance rate set by the spring, it also has a resistance equal to half the ARB sprint rate added to that spring rate.
When both wheels move the same amount, the ARB adds nothing.
When one wheel goes into compression and one wheel goes into droop by the same amount, the ARB spring rate is double that of a single wheel compresion. That doubling is added and subtracted to each wheels spring rate. That is how the ARB resists roll moments.
This is the wheel rate of my Impreza front suspension on an uprated 22mm ARB in single wheel bump
This is the wheel rate of my Impreza front suspension on an uprated 22mm ARB in roll
This is the wheel rate of my Impreza front suspension on an uprated 24mm whiteline ARB in single wheel bump
This is the wheel rate of my Impreza front suspension on an uprated 24mm whiteline ARB in roll
Note how the ARB uprate not only increases roll resistance, it also adds to the resistance in single wheel bump movement. (wheel rate is the resistance felt at the wheel when you calculate out the geometry of the suspension). You will notice that the spring rate and ARB rate effects are different because their motion ratio is different. The ARB effect is controlled via its motion ratio (where on the suspension the load is passed, usually into a wishbone, determines the motion ratio). The spring effect on a McPherson strut is almost 1:1 because its almost a direct load transfer geometry.
So in this case in single wheel bump going from a 22mm ARB to a 24mm ARB changes the wheel rate from 810b/in to 960lb/in. If you were to remove the ARB or if both wheels compress by the same amount at the same time then the wheel rate would drop to 450lb/in.
The roll resistance effect is bigger (up from 1170lb/in to 1471lb/in) because the change you made is doubled in roll, so you will feel the change in roll control more, but there is still a change in single wheel movement spring rate with stiffer ARB's, which is why on a bumpy road where the left and the right wheel move at different times, you feel the car is more skittish than it was on the softer ARB.
james_gt3rs said:
Don't disagree with any of that and not doubting your knowledge at all. But on my particular car the ARB hasn't made the ride worse, if anything it's better because with less roll there's less bump steer effect, so less 'fight' in the steering.
Again, i didn't say it would make it worse (for what you want), but it does change it. It will have made the car less effective in some aspect, for example it will be putting more load into the chassis mount points of the ARB clamps, which could shorten the life of that area of the chassis. Stick it on a Blegium Pave test track and i bet you would find it worse and the car will fall to bits sooner.james_gt3rs said:
Don't disagree with any of that and not doubting your knowledge at all. But on my particular car the ARB hasn't made the ride worse, if anything it's better because with less roll there's less bump steer effect, so less 'fight' in the steering.
However it's a very different car to a GT86, where stiffer ARBs don't have a positive effect. You can't say that because on your lighter, mid-engine, double wishbones all round car that stiffer ARBs are good, that they'll be good on any car. The GT86 is heavier, has the engine in a different place, and has different suspension components (it's McPherson strut up front, and has different spring and damper rates in any event). All of which will change the effect of ARBs on the ride quality.Well a few weeks ago I spent £14k on a 2013 GT86. (Plan to replace 2 cars with 1)
I have a few downsides.
1 Fear of sudden engine death from reading the internet (has a totally stock car on road tyres ever destroyed its engine on track?)
2 Rear visibility isn't great and the original buyer ticked all boxes except reversing sensors.
3 Odd "horizontal" lump in the seat just where my bum go's if I slouch a tiny bit. No idea why I didn't notice it on the test drive. But changing the way I sit seems to solve it.
4 The partners son is not an above knee amputee and as such is unable to go in the rear for more than a few miles without significant complaining.
Then I jumped back in the MK3 MX5 (now for sale, cheapest one on PH...roll up roll up get your MX5 here etc), and I'm happy I made the right choice.
I wouldn't even consider a FWD Peugeot as an alternative to the 86. Unless I wanted to get someone in the back....
I have a few downsides.
1 Fear of sudden engine death from reading the internet (has a totally stock car on road tyres ever destroyed its engine on track?)
2 Rear visibility isn't great and the original buyer ticked all boxes except reversing sensors.
3 Odd "horizontal" lump in the seat just where my bum go's if I slouch a tiny bit. No idea why I didn't notice it on the test drive. But changing the way I sit seems to solve it.
4 The partners son is not an above knee amputee and as such is unable to go in the rear for more than a few miles without significant complaining.
Then I jumped back in the MK3 MX5 (now for sale, cheapest one on PH...roll up roll up get your MX5 here etc), and I'm happy I made the right choice.
I wouldn't even consider a FWD Peugeot as an alternative to the 86. Unless I wanted to get someone in the back....
Simon Owen said:
( ps I may drop you a mail Nick ref minor track prep / advice for the RS that you recommend
No need to mail ! I just fitted PFC Z rated pads, RBF600 fluid and Nankang NS2rs tyres.Providing that the car is a Cup that's pretty much all you need. It will make for a far more interesting trackable daily with a warranty than the bizarre list posted earlier, although it was posted by someone who can't understand that all cars are compromised and that different people make different compromises.
Munter said:
1 Fear of sudden engine death from reading the internet (has a totally stock car on road tyres ever destroyed its engine on track?)
No more than die on the roads from random failure. To put it another way, unless the engine is already on the way out, it's unlikely track sessions would tip it over the edge.Mostly the track issues are lots of boost killing a rod or cars on slicks suffering oil starvation as there is too much slosh in the sump.
Munter said:
2 Rear visibility isn't great and the original buyer ticked all boxes except reversing sensors.
The sensors are a dealer fit option, not factory so a lot didn't bother. They are retro fittable (as is a camera), also you can fit the Intec brake light which removes the big lump on the parcel shelf.Munter said:
Well a few weeks ago I spent £14k on a 2013 GT86. (Plan to replace 2 cars with 1)
I have a few downsides.
1 Fear of sudden engine death from reading the internet (has a totally stock car on road tyres ever destroyed its engine on track?)
2 Rear visibility isn't great and the original buyer ticked all boxes except reversing sensors.
1. Mine seized. I wasn't privy to the inspection report but Internet chat convinced it was excess gasket sealant which over time blocked galleries. Toyota replaced engine under warranty at +50k miles and 4.1/2 years old.I have a few downsides.
1 Fear of sudden engine death from reading the internet (has a totally stock car on road tyres ever destroyed its engine on track?)
2 Rear visibility isn't great and the original buyer ticked all boxes except reversing sensors.
2. Don't tint rear windows - makes rear vision pretty much non-existent, especially when dark and unlit areas. Ask me how I know.
Despite the above, I'm getting another, probably later this year.
LordGrover said:
1. Mine seized. I wasn't privy to the inspection report but Internet chat convinced it was excess gasket sealant which over time blocked galleries. Toyota replaced engine under warranty at +50k miles and 4.1/2 years old.
2. Don't tint rear windows - makes rear vision pretty much non-existent, especially when dark and unlit areas. Ask me how I know.
Despite the above, I'm getting another, probably later this year.
My Impreza has factory fit optional tinted rear and rear side windows, only available on JDM cars. It's perfect day or night. You probably had too dark a tint.2. Don't tint rear windows - makes rear vision pretty much non-existent, especially when dark and unlit areas. Ask me how I know.
Despite the above, I'm getting another, probably later this year.
Munter said:
Well a few weeks ago I spent £14k on a 2013 GT86. (Plan to replace 2 cars with 1)
I have a few downsides.
1 Fear of sudden engine death from reading the internet (has a totally stock car on road tyres ever destroyed its engine on track?)
2 Rear visibility isn't great and the original buyer ticked all boxes except reversing sensors.
3 Odd "horizontal" lump in the seat just where my bum go's if I slouch a tiny bit. No idea why I didn't notice it on the test drive. But changing the way I sit seems to solve it.
4 The partners son is not an above knee amputee and as such is unable to go in the rear for more than a few miles without significant complaining.
Then I jumped back in the MK3 MX5 (now for sale, cheapest one on PH...roll up roll up get your MX5 here etc), and I'm happy I made the right choice.
I wouldn't even consider a FWD Peugeot as an alternative to the 86. Unless I wanted to get someone in the back....
Congratulations!I have a few downsides.
1 Fear of sudden engine death from reading the internet (has a totally stock car on road tyres ever destroyed its engine on track?)
2 Rear visibility isn't great and the original buyer ticked all boxes except reversing sensors.
3 Odd "horizontal" lump in the seat just where my bum go's if I slouch a tiny bit. No idea why I didn't notice it on the test drive. But changing the way I sit seems to solve it.
4 The partners son is not an above knee amputee and as such is unable to go in the rear for more than a few miles without significant complaining.
Then I jumped back in the MK3 MX5 (now for sale, cheapest one on PH...roll up roll up get your MX5 here etc), and I'm happy I made the right choice.
I wouldn't even consider a FWD Peugeot as an alternative to the 86. Unless I wanted to get someone in the back....
First purchase should be wheels & tyres, or at least just tyres (if you like the standard wheels).
There are a few folk running 17s, I run 18s, a common upgrade. Ideal fitment is 8-9" wide and ET30-45.
Some wheels wont clear standard shocks and springs on the higher offsets, and go too low an offset and you'll foul the arches.
The driver's club facebook and forum is decent, and there is a used parts page also.
Thanks for the comforting words on the engine front guys. 
I'll be keeping to the standard wheel sizes. If history has taught me anything it's that I know less about car dynamics than the people who do it every day for a profession. It feels plenty hard enough without less sidewall, and it'd just encourage more damage from potholes and speedbumps etc.
Plan is to turn the standard wheels into a winter set for next year with actual winters on them, and get a set of dynamics pro race 1.2 for the summer/track set.
Re Tints. I expect it's because of the very shallow angle of the rear screen. So a tint that's good on a saloon, would be really dark on this. Not my bag anyway.
I'll be keeping to the standard wheel sizes. If history has taught me anything it's that I know less about car dynamics than the people who do it every day for a profession. It feels plenty hard enough without less sidewall, and it'd just encourage more damage from potholes and speedbumps etc.
Plan is to turn the standard wheels into a winter set for next year with actual winters on them, and get a set of dynamics pro race 1.2 for the summer/track set.
Re Tints. I expect it's because of the very shallow angle of the rear screen. So a tint that's good on a saloon, would be really dark on this. Not my bag anyway.
Munter said:
Thanks for the comforting words on the engine front guys.
I'll be keeping to the standard wheel sizes. If history has taught me anything it's that I know less about car dynamics than the people who do it every day for a profession. It feels plenty hard enough without less sidewall, and it'd just encourage more damage from potholes and speedbumps etc.
Plan is to turn the standard wheels into a winter set for next year with actual winters on them, and get a set of dynamics pro race 1.2 for the summer/track set.
Re Tints. I expect it's because of the very shallow angle of the rear screen. So a tint that's good on a saloon, would be really dark on this. Not my bag anyway.
The standard suspension is quite compromised on the road, my coilovers are softer, and if you're still on the Primacy, they are pretty hard too.I'll be keeping to the standard wheel sizes. If history has taught me anything it's that I know less about car dynamics than the people who do it every day for a profession. It feels plenty hard enough without less sidewall, and it'd just encourage more damage from potholes and speedbumps etc.
Plan is to turn the standard wheels into a winter set for next year with actual winters on them, and get a set of dynamics pro race 1.2 for the summer/track set.
Re Tints. I expect it's because of the very shallow angle of the rear screen. So a tint that's good on a saloon, would be really dark on this. Not my bag anyway.
i'd be tempted to go wider for your track setup, you'll get better tyre choices, if you make any meets just ask around.
I had a build thread on here but photobucket nerfed it.
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