RE: Toyota GT86 v Peugeot Sport 208 GTI
Discussion
jsf said:
Its not the tyre size, its the tyre type that makes the GT86 slipery. It's sold with the low grip Prius rubber fitted. Stick some decent rubber on it and the speeds will go up before breakaway.
It may be no Pilot Super Sport, but the Premacy HP is hardly a rock-hard eco tyre either. It's just a middle-of-the-road premium tyre. jsf said:
s m said:
200Plus Club said:
And I could tell you were a 208 gti owner or fanboy immediately by your response. Sorry for being a bit harsh but it's not sporty looking or appealing in any way, it looks like any shopping hatchback , it could be a fiesta or Kia looking at it. Whether it can be bought at £23k or drive the deal at £16k it's just any other bland fwd hatch. The GT86 at least looks sporty and interesting despite being grossly overpriced.
Each to their own, but any modern Peugeot from the last ten years just look dire imho. The GT86 would perhaps interest me if you could pick em up cheap and drop in a bit more power rather than relying on skinny slippery tyres. Fensport have done some nice conversions but it's decent money on top of an expensive car.
As per my previous list and many other "drivers" cars there are some superb looking and fabulous driving cars out there for £20k
You're thinking of the budget model with steel wheels and 195s I'd sayEach to their own, but any modern Peugeot from the last ten years just look dire imho. The GT86 would perhaps interest me if you could pick em up cheap and drop in a bit more power rather than relying on skinny slippery tyres. Fensport have done some nice conversions but it's decent money on top of an expensive car.
As per my previous list and many other "drivers" cars there are some superb looking and fabulous driving cars out there for £20k
The U.K. model has fatter tyres (215s) than my E46 325i and wider than standard rubber on stuff like a Sierra Cosworth, 200SX, E30 M3 or Merc 190 2.5-16 - all similar weight and power. It pulls 1g on the standard tyres - about the same or more as most 200bhp hot hatches so hardly that slippery
I reckon you'd want 195 or 205 at most in modern rubber to slide it round a lot
My point, if you read above, is that the GT86 on the 17" Primacy tyres is not exactly "slippery" compared to any other current hot hatch or similar power/weight sporty car. Anything that can corner at 0.9g to 1g is not lacking in grip
Read the road-holding tests/lateral g figures recorded for it in different mag tests and you'll see it grips just as hard as most things of the same weight.
This seems to be a much repeated myth - if they'd wanted to make it a 'drift' type of car they could have got away with a much narrower tyre ( e.g as used on the Japan market RC model with 195s or even a 205/50 X 17 like on the heavier Octavia VRS or 125i Coupé with the same performance ). A 205/50 X 17 would have given similar DRG and ride quality while still maintaining showroom appeal
The Primacy was chosen partly for production supply reasons but it's not particularly low grip
Toyoda said:
kambites said:
So you agree that comparing the 208 to the 205 is also pointless? In which case why are we having this discussion at all?
Cos some twonk just blindly started quoting inflation (neither of us).
So someone doesn't agree with you about car inflation, puts forward a rationale and suddenly he becomes a blind twonk ?
Sorry to hear about your susceptibility. From my perspective it's totally possible to disagree with someone while developing a rational thought process using basic dialectic.
From yours it's "you're a twonk".
Can you sense how one could reasonably wonder who the twonk with issues actually is ? Particularly when they contradict themselves as highlighted :
kambites said:
If you can't compare a 1994 Micra to a current one, you also can't compare a 205 GTi to a 208 GTi and so the whole discussion is pointless.
FYI, a 208 is 12 inches longer than a 205 so belongs to another of today's segment. At £16k new (transaction price) it's cheap as chips IMO. But I am genuinely sorry to hear that this is a lot of money for you.Edited by nickfrog on Saturday 3rd March 23:33
The GT86 in stock form seems compromised:
1)sounds uninspiring in general and strained at high revs
2)makes less than 200 bhp on the dyno
3)has crap tyres to overcome the lack of power and facilitate drift on demand
The best hot hatches may suffer from being based on FWD shopping trolleys,but they are more balanced packages,while the GT86 needs some mods to unlock the potential of the platform and the chassis.
1)sounds uninspiring in general and strained at high revs
2)makes less than 200 bhp on the dyno
3)has crap tyres to overcome the lack of power and facilitate drift on demand
The best hot hatches may suffer from being based on FWD shopping trolleys,but they are more balanced packages,while the GT86 needs some mods to unlock the potential of the platform and the chassis.
Edited by mainaman on Sunday 4th March 01:33
Wonder why Toyobaru didn't fit the 2.5 flat four to the 86. The Subaru factories have been making a 2.5 for many years, so the factories are already tooled up for it. Very little in the way of extra design costs. Surely, a no brainer. No need for a big power hike. Same 200 HP would do, but with extra torque and much better flexibilty. It would answer most of the demand for greater driveability, but without overpowering the car's delicate balance.
I expect the answer has something to do with a sudden tax jump in some countries when you go over 2 litres. But that's missing the point. The 86 is not a business motorway barge, but a car aimed squarely at dedicated enthusiasts. I really think they missed a trick here, and it's not too late to do something about it.
I expect the answer has something to do with a sudden tax jump in some countries when you go over 2 litres. But that's missing the point. The 86 is not a business motorway barge, but a car aimed squarely at dedicated enthusiasts. I really think they missed a trick here, and it's not too late to do something about it.
Johnny5hoods said:
Wonder why Toyobaru didn't fit the 2.5 flat four to the 86. The Subaru factories have been making a 2.5 for many years, so the factories are already tooled up for it. Very little in the way of extra design costs. Surely, a no brainer. No need for a big power hike. Same 200 HP would do, but with extra torque and much better flexibilty. It would answer most of the demand for greater driveability, but without overpowering the car's delicate balance.
I expect the answer has something to do with a sudden tax jump in some countries when you go over 2 litres. But that's missing the point. The 86 is not a business motorway barge, but a car aimed squarely at dedicated enthusiasts. I really think they missed a trick here, and it's not too late to do something about it.
Its easy why they dont put a 2.5 flat 4 in there, they don't make one in the new engine model, the old 2.5 was an EJ series, the engine in the GT86 is an FA20, its meant to be this way, 200 (supposed) bhp, more like 180 though.I expect the answer has something to do with a sudden tax jump in some countries when you go over 2 litres. But that's missing the point. The 86 is not a business motorway barge, but a car aimed squarely at dedicated enthusiasts. I really think they missed a trick here, and it's not too late to do something about it.
It does not need to be turbo charged or modified heavily, its a good car out of the box (the GT86), the pug on the other hand is the 3rd in the series from Peugeot Sport, they have done an excellent job on making it a great little pocket rocket, front LSD, 208ps, Brembo front brakes etc, its done right and handles like its suppose to, the only down side to the modern pugs is the electric steering, its a little numb tbh.
Edited by tonyb1968 on Sunday 4th March 03:25
Johnny5hoods said:
Wonder why Toyobaru didn't fit the 2.5 flat four to the 86. The Subaru factories have been making a 2.5 for many years, so the factories are already tooled up for it. Very little in the way of extra design costs. Surely, a no brainer. No need for a big power hike. Same 200 HP would do, but with extra torque and much better flexibilty. It would answer most of the demand for greater driveability, but without overpowering the car's delicate balance.
I expect the answer has something to do with a sudden tax jump in some countries when you go over 2 litres. But that's missing the point. The 86 is not a business motorway barge, but a car aimed squarely at dedicated enthusiasts. I really think they missed a trick here, and it's not too late to do something about it.
Actually, the FA20 is relatively high torque for an NA engine. Its high compression makes it comparable to an old school 2,5l. It makes, al least in theory, 100hp/l at a mere 7000rpm. Also on the dyno, it peaks well above 100Nm/l.I expect the answer has something to do with a sudden tax jump in some countries when you go over 2 litres. But that's missing the point. The 86 is not a business motorway barge, but a car aimed squarely at dedicated enthusiasts. I really think they missed a trick here, and it's not too late to do something about it.
Also, don't forget it is one of the few high specific output NA engines that still meets emission regs.
It is let down by that torque dip. It's quite frisky in the typical diesel rev range of 2-3,5k revs, making it a good daily, but just as that diesel it dies a bit between 3,5-4,5k revs. After that it picks up again, bit Jekyll and Hyde. Can be fixed... Or driven around. On mine the dip is gone and engine does 235Nm, 2,8l vr6 territory. Together with the immediate throttle response in tight curves it is a lot quicker than a 2l turbo hh engine. It takes 5+ seconds forvthe latter to blast past, but in real life quite often the next turn/hinderance will already have shown up...
Other letdown is sound but most of the trash sound comes from that stupid intake sound artificially piped to the cabin. Easy to block that of. A catback exhaust gives the engine a voice (few hundred quid 2nd hand), and while it will never be a sweet engine, it has bags of character which is much more than most modern 4 pots.
Edited by Onehp on Sunday 4th March 07:08
Mercury00 said:
£30k for a "cheap car", aye right 
you can see the PH writers aren't in touch with the real world.
How did you make it to the spec boxes without seeing the links to far cheaper examples? I get that exact versions here aren't ideal but other posters have shown there are deals available. you can see the PH writers aren't in touch with the real world.And besides an Up GTI and 1.5 MX-5, what interesting cars are around for less than £20k?
Matt Bird said:
How did you make it to the spec boxes without seeing the links to far cheaper examples? I get that exact versions here aren't ideal but other posters have shown there are deals available.
And besides an Up GTI and 1.5 MX-5, what interesting cars are around for less than £20k?
New do you mean? I'd be saving my cash if that's the best you can get new for 20k realistically. And besides an Up GTI and 1.5 MX-5, what interesting cars are around for less than £20k?
If non new, then easy answer is look on PH classifieds there's about a million more interesting /exciting cars about for that budget.
stuckmojo said:
200Plus Club said:
25 grand for a fwd pug lol.
It should be made of gold warrantied for ever and come with free petrol! Gordon Bennett!
This.It should be made of gold warrantied for ever and come with free petrol! Gordon Bennett!
But I imagine they are all leased.
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...
ZX10R NIN said:
I guess you'd rather pay 25k for a new 118i that won't be anywhere near as good a drive.
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...
Who me? Absolutely not. Under no circumstances would I buy any of the cars mentioned in this thread other than perhaps the one I posted https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...
This is more my bag for info, I've just placed a deposit. More than 25k unfortunately but if I wanted something newer I can assure you the words Peugeot or Toyota won't be in the search engine.
200Plus Club said:
ZX10R NIN said:
I guess you'd rather pay 25k for a new 118i that won't be anywhere near as good a drive.
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...
Who me? Absolutely not. Under no circumstances would I buy any of the cars mentioned in this thread other than perhaps the one I posted https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...
This is more my bag for info, I've just placed a deposit. More than 25k unfortunately but if I wanted something newer I can assure you the words Peugeot or Toyota won't be in the search engine.
Guy ( Graham something or other ) in the village I used to live in (Tibberton ) used to be heavily involved with owners club and used to do a show day at local pub every year
nickfrog said:
Sorry to hear about your susceptibility. From my perspective it's totally possible to disagree with someone while developing a rational thought process using basic dialectic.
From yours it's "you're a twonk".
Basic dialectic lol, I prefer my more succinct analysis. Well this article is headed 25k cars so it's no wonder people comment on the prices. If it was about the price the cars could actually be bought for then this article wouldn't exist as a gt86 at 25k can't be compared to the pug at 16k. From yours it's "you're a twonk".
Toyoda said:
nickfrog said:
Sorry to hear about your susceptibility. From my perspective it's totally possible to disagree with someone while developing a rational thought process using basic dialectic.
From yours it's "you're a twonk".
Basic dialectic lol, I prefer my more succinct analysis. Well this article is headed 25k cars so it's no wonder people comment on the prices. If it was about the price the cars could actually be bought for then this article wouldn't exist as a gt86 at 25k can't be compared to the pug at 16k. From yours it's "you're a twonk".
"Toyota GT86 v Peugeot Sport 208 GTI
Matt Bird posted on Saturday, March 03, 2018 in Features
Our current favourite rear-wheel drive car at about £25k battles our favourite FWD - which is most fun?"
The 208 is £16k new, which is quite difficult to argue with. Check on DTD.
I think you flatter yourself in considering an uncalled for insult (based on a mere divergence of views on a subjective topic) as a "succinct analysis".
I really didn't mean to use words beyond your grasp like dialectic so I have tried to adapt the semantics down to your level.
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