RE: PH Service History: Snow bother
Discussion
rjfp1962 said:
In snow it's about the tyres and not the vehicle! A "normal" hatchback on winter tyres is more use than any 4x4 on summer tyres.
One of these on a set of All-Season tyres maybe?!
Not so sure about this had an octavia in winters a few years ago and been running a 4x4 kuga on summers this winter its been to places where the skoda got stuck. You do have to turn the traction control off on the kuga when going through deep stuff.One of these on a set of All-Season tyres maybe?!
HocusPocus said:
Forget 4x4s. Tyres, tyres, tyres. Driven several 2wds fully loaded into ski resorts across the world with temperatures down to -26C with no problems. Every week, ski resorts deal with conditions far more dangerous than the Beast from the East.
Full winter tyres give proper traction. All weather tyres are waste of time when going gets tough. In deep snow you want extra ground clearance to prevent car from beaching itself and lifting wheels off the ground. Low slung sports cars, even with 4x4 and winter tyres need not apply.
Several European countries legislate for winter tyres, which is why they don't suffer UK's laughable chaos when a few cm of snow falls. Cost of a spare set of wheels shod in winters is usually less than a grand....the price of a minor accident recovery and repair.
I agree, after all parts of Germany and Canada have more snow than us, and plenty of RWD cars. Two things, one, they have snow significantly more often so the infrastructure is geared to clearing it, and two, they have winter tyres. Volvo’s were also native to a snowy country and used to all be RWD.Full winter tyres give proper traction. All weather tyres are waste of time when going gets tough. In deep snow you want extra ground clearance to prevent car from beaching itself and lifting wheels off the ground. Low slung sports cars, even with 4x4 and winter tyres need not apply.
Several European countries legislate for winter tyres, which is why they don't suffer UK's laughable chaos when a few cm of snow falls. Cost of a spare set of wheels shod in winters is usually less than a grand....the price of a minor accident recovery and repair.
In the snow around Xmas / New Year which fell consistently winter tyres would have been little advantage over my LC (though I doubt they’d have been as good towing stranded cars). The beast from the east has brought drifts, and higher ground clearance has been a more palpable benefit on roads that weren’t fully cleared.
Incidentally, my E34 M5 was quite good in snow. It’s LSD meant drive never stopped going to the wheel with more grip.
Monteverdi Hai said:
Sachsenring??
Yes, here's a little more:https://youtu.be/FD_FreR5mtU
https://youtu.be/O2xElZqLFwA
Rosedale Chimney, one of the steepest roads in the country, is quite local to me so I went over that way in the Outback today. It was still covered in snow, no tarmac to be seen anywhere, but while the TC was working more than I've seen it before I still got up it without any drama. Went up Blakey bank later in the day too. I know that people are fond of telling how their 300+bhp rwd cars on summer tyres have managed just fine in the snow, but I suspect they mean 'managed to get from my house in the suburbs to the nearest retail park along relatively flat roads with a bit of slush on them without crashing'. To still be able to do the routes I do regularly in the type of weather we've had of late I wouldn't be without 4wd and winter tyres.
In the current conditions, unless you stick to roads that have been cleared with a snowplough, cars like the R8 are going to have their front bumpers and undertrays ruined (not to mention it not having a particularly useful type of 4-wheel drive system). The same with the TT (which does at least have a haldex clutch system) and the Volvo.
ETA: *speaking from a Scottish perspective. Maybe the snow where you are isn't too bad.
ETA: *speaking from a Scottish perspective. Maybe the snow where you are isn't too bad.
I have found a low powered Subaru Impreza hatchback on winter tyres great this winter on ice and snow (on and off since end of Nov) including when running low ratio and a sump guard going over a single track hillroad a few weeks ago for 30 miles with about 6 inches of snow (not worth repeating as could have had to turn back by stuck vehicles on or half off the road).
Deeper snow such as in recent Beast from East and drifts means another route, do not do journey, or contemplate a Land Rover on winter tyres (and even then the first two could apply).
No-one mentioned Suzuki Jimny, MkI Fiat Panda, Styer Puch Haflinger, Bedford 4x4 army truck or 1960's Unimog yet? Or perhaps a BRIXMIS Ferguson 4x4 modified Opel Senator?
Cheers
Mike
Deeper snow such as in recent Beast from East and drifts means another route, do not do journey, or contemplate a Land Rover on winter tyres (and even then the first two could apply).
No-one mentioned Suzuki Jimny, MkI Fiat Panda, Styer Puch Haflinger, Bedford 4x4 army truck or 1960's Unimog yet? Or perhaps a BRIXMIS Ferguson 4x4 modified Opel Senator?
Cheers
Mike
Edited by Mike Wood SST on Monday 5th March 00:03
Just to add another angle to the debate......power delivery.
Had an Alfa 166 3.0 V6 back when we had the last really bad snow in winter 2010/11. I was one of the only cars not getting stranded on the day I stupidly drove to work, not knowing that everywhere including our office had stayed closed. OK, so this was within the city (Edinburgh) so I'm not talking about traversing 3ft deep drifts on country hills, but the point is everyone else was getting stuck and I was sailing by, and it's not down to driver technique either (as much as I'd love to take credit). I even had barely legal summer tyres on it, as I'd only just bought it and hadn't got around to replacing them yet. What I think was in my favour was the fact that being a torquey 3 litre NA meant that when pulling away all I had to do was slowly let the clutch out and let it crawl at idle speed until it was going, no throttle required. The weight of the engine probably helped too. Now in comparison......
Current car is a Ph2 V70 T5. Similar weight to the Alfa. Probably similar weight over the front wheels. Brand new decent tyres, albeit still summers. Bit more torque and power. In the V70 I struggle to get traction in the snow in the same sort of circumstances that I'd driven the Alfa in before. And I put this squarely down to the the fact that with the T5 it's not as happy to pull away at idle like the Alfa was, and really it needs at least a tickle of the throttle. That "tickle" can be difficult to get right though, whether that be due to the turbo, the mapping, or the fly by wire throttle I don't know, but there seems to be no happy medium. It feels very "on or off" in the snow, and the lightest application of the gas has the tyres spinning.
Probably not at the top of the list for things to consider when choosing your ultimate snow survival vehicle, but power delivery (or rather torque curve) is a factor.
Anyhoo, apparently if you want something really unstoppable it's a Unimog you need ;-)
Had an Alfa 166 3.0 V6 back when we had the last really bad snow in winter 2010/11. I was one of the only cars not getting stranded on the day I stupidly drove to work, not knowing that everywhere including our office had stayed closed. OK, so this was within the city (Edinburgh) so I'm not talking about traversing 3ft deep drifts on country hills, but the point is everyone else was getting stuck and I was sailing by, and it's not down to driver technique either (as much as I'd love to take credit). I even had barely legal summer tyres on it, as I'd only just bought it and hadn't got around to replacing them yet. What I think was in my favour was the fact that being a torquey 3 litre NA meant that when pulling away all I had to do was slowly let the clutch out and let it crawl at idle speed until it was going, no throttle required. The weight of the engine probably helped too. Now in comparison......
Current car is a Ph2 V70 T5. Similar weight to the Alfa. Probably similar weight over the front wheels. Brand new decent tyres, albeit still summers. Bit more torque and power. In the V70 I struggle to get traction in the snow in the same sort of circumstances that I'd driven the Alfa in before. And I put this squarely down to the the fact that with the T5 it's not as happy to pull away at idle like the Alfa was, and really it needs at least a tickle of the throttle. That "tickle" can be difficult to get right though, whether that be due to the turbo, the mapping, or the fly by wire throttle I don't know, but there seems to be no happy medium. It feels very "on or off" in the snow, and the lightest application of the gas has the tyres spinning.
Probably not at the top of the list for things to consider when choosing your ultimate snow survival vehicle, but power delivery (or rather torque curve) is a factor.
Anyhoo, apparently if you want something really unstoppable it's a Unimog you need ;-)
As stated, tyres are super important. I have been driving in sweden for 16 years and have yet to get stuck. And I have never owned a 4wd vehcle. It was damn close with an old volvo because of old winter tyres.
One thing people do worng is they have way too wide winter tyres just to look cool, hence lots of bemmers and stuff having a hard.time. With 205 wide Hakka R i never had a problem with my 318d, it makes such a big difference to step down in width for the winters. And there is also a massive difference between different brands and types of winter tyres, have a good look at the different tyre tests that pop up each year.
One thing people do worng is they have way too wide winter tyres just to look cool, hence lots of bemmers and stuff having a hard.time. With 205 wide Hakka R i never had a problem with my 318d, it makes such a big difference to step down in width for the winters. And there is also a massive difference between different brands and types of winter tyres, have a good look at the different tyre tests that pop up each year.
Honeywell said:
A four wheel drive Skoda Yeti on winter tyres is an awesome snow/flood/mud machine and will go a long way off road if you know what you’re doing. I also have a Rangerover for towing but in the last week the Yeti has been the better machine for transport. Being 1.2 tons lighter it corners and stops on ice much better.
Well engineered little machines.
As a few have already said, unless you live somewhere really remote and have to deal with very steep hills where a proper 4x4 is the only sensible choice, its all about the tyres. I have winter tyres on both an F31 330d (not x drive) and a Citroen C4 Cactus. Well engineered little machines.
Both are running on Pirelli Sottozeros and neither had any issues getting anywhere at all last week. However, driven wheels aside, the Cactus's low kerb weight of 1020kg give or take, meant it felt much happier than the BMW. When the snow started to get really deep, its added ground clearance (compared to a 3 series!) meant it was the go-to choice. On two occasions, the Cactus made easy work of a road that had an X5 and GLC 4 matic struggling for traction, both of which were 4wd but I assume were on high performance summer rubber.
My dad-wagon has lowered suspension (yes, I’m such a chav
) and as such is probably unsuited to the task, but with the right tyres it coped admirably here in snowy Essex. Plenty of other cars were struggling for any form of traction, but the old beast sailed through without a hint of wheelspin.Even made it onto the telly
Martin-G said:
The locals in the Alpine ski resorts do like their MK1 Panda 4x4’s. Apparently not much will stop them on winter tyres.
This was the first chance I've had to really put my Mk2 Panda 4x4 to the test and the thing was comically unstoppable. Drove every day in Ireland for the last week. Started slow just around the block to see how she'd do, then went seeking steeper and steeper inclines as she seemed unstoppable. Even went off road and up the steepest grassy (snow covered) hill I could. Laughing my ass off and it just kept going and turning heads everywhere it went because it looks just like a standard panda. Towing people out, and being able to visit my gran every day to ensure she got medication and food is just another on the long list of reasons I'll be keeping this car as long as I can.
BTW, when I was thinking about buying one I took a ski trip in the alps and must have seen 100 of them in the week I was there, so I thought 'they must be good and either cheap to repair or fairly reliable'. So far so good - 2 NCTs (Irish version of MOT) down and passed both with no advisories.
Silly suggestion R8/sports car as snow transport. It would last about 2 minutes before disappearing under a drift. Most popular transport that I've seen in ski resorts are cheap 4x4s on winters. Most popular transport in snow around here (High Peak) is 4x4 on A/T winters. If you live south of Birmingham and rarely get meaningful snow then argue all you like about fwd/rwd + all seasons/winters because the difference won't be much just getting up your drive. Try a normal saloon on winters in the Peak and you'll be stuck with all the other folk because you can't access the untreated back roads due to low ride height.
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