RE: Prior Convictions: The Need for Speed
Discussion
It is a matter of status. The practicality of actually being able to achieve the claimed speed is a secondary issue. They are called hyper cars for a reason - top speed is only part of the hype. As important is the price you are required to pay. Even better if you, the manufacturer, sell to invited customers only. To help this approach work it is usually necessary to declare a limited edition. Get it right and you might even get away with a starting price of c£1 million. If you are really on top of your game you will have sold that limited edition to your clients before your hyper product is announced for the wonderment of the rest of us, the unwashed.
Of course it's an irrelevance. When there's almost nowhere you can achieve the performance envelope of your car it's about bragging rights.
Imagine what would happen to car design if say China mandated that if wanted to sell a car there they could do no more than 150mph. (I suggest China because they seem to have petty much set the maximum capacity at 4.0L). If the cars were designed to do no more than 150mph they'd be designed to be fun up to that speed. They'd be altogether more Lotus.
Just a thought.
Imagine what would happen to car design if say China mandated that if wanted to sell a car there they could do no more than 150mph. (I suggest China because they seem to have petty much set the maximum capacity at 4.0L). If the cars were designed to do no more than 150mph they'd be designed to be fun up to that speed. They'd be altogether more Lotus.
Just a thought.
I think the big change is the market.
- When the F40 / F1 / XJ220 / EB110 were launched, the manufacturers weren't sure if they'd turn a profit / how many they'd sell. And the buyers bought because they WANTED the car.
- Now, the manufacturers can pretty much set their price, guaranteed to make a profit. And often the buyers aren't necessarily massive car-enthusiasts, but investors looking to flip the car and turn a profit (or sit on it, undriven, and turn a profit).
What's brought about this change?
- Low interest rates has made rare/classic/exotic cars "an investment", just like artwork or property;
- The march of capitalism* has led to an explosion in the number of multi-millionaires and billionaires, many wanting to out-do each other;
- The internet age has made it SO much easier to show off...
- When the F40 / F1 / XJ220 / EB110 were launched, the manufacturers weren't sure if they'd turn a profit / how many they'd sell. And the buyers bought because they WANTED the car.
- Now, the manufacturers can pretty much set their price, guaranteed to make a profit. And often the buyers aren't necessarily massive car-enthusiasts, but investors looking to flip the car and turn a profit (or sit on it, undriven, and turn a profit).
What's brought about this change?
- Low interest rates has made rare/classic/exotic cars "an investment", just like artwork or property;
- The march of capitalism* has led to an explosion in the number of multi-millionaires and billionaires, many wanting to out-do each other;
- The internet age has made it SO much easier to show off...
TWPC said:
Doesn't the Up GTI look fantastic though?
It looks like a boring blob, not that really matters if it is fun to drive. I like nippy little town cars, I had a C1 courtesy car the other day, it was quite good fun on some lanes and in town, but the awful ergonomics and FWD scrabble for grip spoil it as an ownership proposition.Kind of on topic as top speed is useless if the car is not fun to drive the rest of the time.
Yes. I'm afraid the top speed is totally irrelevant, but people will still buy cars that do X+ 100.0 mph and because they have the money, manufacturers will always make those cars. If it furthers technology, safety, aesthetics etc. along the way, why not?!
I'm sure if I tried in the middle of the night, with someone driving ahead to check the road conditions, how many other road users were about and if law enforcement were patrolling, I could get up to something the manufacturers of my car claim as the top speed. If I went to a circuit or an old runway I might also get near to it. But clearly not to these levels. Also not practically, every day or without risking life and licence. The places you could possibly do it are private in the UK and rare anywhere else.
So it becomes as relevant really as trying to achieve a top speed by going to my local beauty-spot, Beachy Head and throwing yourself off in a swallow dive to try and beat the McLaren max. You may even be able to do it..... once.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_velocity
I'm sure if I tried in the middle of the night, with someone driving ahead to check the road conditions, how many other road users were about and if law enforcement were patrolling, I could get up to something the manufacturers of my car claim as the top speed. If I went to a circuit or an old runway I might also get near to it. But clearly not to these levels. Also not practically, every day or without risking life and licence. The places you could possibly do it are private in the UK and rare anywhere else.
So it becomes as relevant really as trying to achieve a top speed by going to my local beauty-spot, Beachy Head and throwing yourself off in a swallow dive to try and beat the McLaren max. You may even be able to do it..... once.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_velocity
"But how difficult does it have to be to access a car's limits, before they really do become pointless?"
Not sure... Again the whole 'hindsight' thing....
Back in the 80's, 90's, and almost up to about 5 years ago with the "hypercar trinity", because of less advanced tech; highest top speed and the lowest acceleration numbers were the "holy grail" of auto 'trailblazing' or 'game changing'.
The "chase" was still on...
Now, in 2018 it seems like we have Finally hit the wall of "diminishing returns".
It takes major increases in power, engineering prowess, and investment capital; to get just .2 or .3 seconds faster to 60, past 250, faster on the nurburgring, etc...
In real life, 90 percent of the time is spent driving at plebeian speeds; even for the super-ultra-hyper cars. Just for "safety's" sake - (police, passengers, pedestrians, other drivers, mechanical failure, driver error, deer/wildlife, road conditions, etc.)
So anything above a mid size sedan's performance limits, is really not necessary; in hindsight.
Therefore, "irrelevant" or pointless.
But not unnecessary, in my opinion.
I think the "hype" about extreme stats just needs to be lessened, or go away; but that doesn't sell cars now does it lol......
Not sure... Again the whole 'hindsight' thing....
Back in the 80's, 90's, and almost up to about 5 years ago with the "hypercar trinity", because of less advanced tech; highest top speed and the lowest acceleration numbers were the "holy grail" of auto 'trailblazing' or 'game changing'.
The "chase" was still on...
Now, in 2018 it seems like we have Finally hit the wall of "diminishing returns".
It takes major increases in power, engineering prowess, and investment capital; to get just .2 or .3 seconds faster to 60, past 250, faster on the nurburgring, etc...
In real life, 90 percent of the time is spent driving at plebeian speeds; even for the super-ultra-hyper cars. Just for "safety's" sake - (police, passengers, pedestrians, other drivers, mechanical failure, driver error, deer/wildlife, road conditions, etc.)
So anything above a mid size sedan's performance limits, is really not necessary; in hindsight.
Therefore, "irrelevant" or pointless.
But not unnecessary, in my opinion.
I think the "hype" about extreme stats just needs to be lessened, or go away; but that doesn't sell cars now does it lol......
I don't think massive top speed is irrelevant at all.
Hyper car looks , top speed and BHP get (some) kids and grown-ups interested and a few of them will care about what they drive, which in turn spurs manufacturers to make cars that are more engaging to drive as they know that they'll sell them. If no-one wants fast cars, then they won't get bought and manufacturers will stop making them. Having driven some 'white goods' cars recently, they're sooooo dull I wouldn't want go the long way home in one just because the sun was out and there were a few nice bends...
And if no-one was bothered about 'performance' would the Up! GTi even exist, remembering of course that even the non-sporty versions can break all of the speed limits in this country...
I want to see that odd glimpse of something special now and again, something unobtainable (to me anyway) then talk with my kids as they tell me it's a 650s not a 720s or P1 and how fast they all can go to 60 and their top speeds while checking if they have managed to get a picture of it. (If you have a super / hyper car and fancy a trip to Cornwall, we'll get our cameras!)
Anyway, I thought speed matters ???
Hyper car looks , top speed and BHP get (some) kids and grown-ups interested and a few of them will care about what they drive, which in turn spurs manufacturers to make cars that are more engaging to drive as they know that they'll sell them. If no-one wants fast cars, then they won't get bought and manufacturers will stop making them. Having driven some 'white goods' cars recently, they're sooooo dull I wouldn't want go the long way home in one just because the sun was out and there were a few nice bends...
And if no-one was bothered about 'performance' would the Up! GTi even exist, remembering of course that even the non-sporty versions can break all of the speed limits in this country...
I want to see that odd glimpse of something special now and again, something unobtainable (to me anyway) then talk with my kids as they tell me it's a 650s not a 720s or P1 and how fast they all can go to 60 and their top speeds while checking if they have managed to get a picture of it. (If you have a super / hyper car and fancy a trip to Cornwall, we'll get our cameras!)
Anyway, I thought speed matters ???
Maybe we just need a new performance benchmark, maybe floor it a 90ish and then measure the 100mph to 180mph range.
All the attributes of very high top speed (great aero, loads of power), a technical demonstration of performance and in a window that *some* owners at least will be able to enjoy, appreciate, experience. For the remaining owners, maybe they just need some kind of ‘city centre attention seeking’ factor... as I only ever see them being used for posing...
All the attributes of very high top speed (great aero, loads of power), a technical demonstration of performance and in a window that *some* owners at least will be able to enjoy, appreciate, experience. For the remaining owners, maybe they just need some kind of ‘city centre attention seeking’ factor... as I only ever see them being used for posing...
Black S2K said:
One definition of art is something that is completely pointless.
Such cars may therefore be works of art.
I have absolutely no interest in owning one, but I feel better for their existence.
I think a better definition is that art exists to evoke a complex response in the person experiencing it, ideally a positive one. By that mark it is anything but pointless.Such cars may therefore be works of art.
I have absolutely no interest in owning one, but I feel better for their existence.
Having said that I find Euler's Identity beautiful and it is not art, but an expression of the universe.
Drivers of these cars can appreciate advances in braking, handling, weight reduction (notably unsprung), engine response, and a number of other areas. I don't necessarily like the present execution of turbochaging but the advances in engine technology - or at least the effects felt by a driver - have been pretty much incredible.
Top speed is a by product of better aerodynamics and more power/torque, the benefits of which can be felt on the road without having to drive flat out in top gear. Of course, top speed sells!
I'd still like to drive an F1 car even though I'm sure I'd be miles off of the pace.
Top speed is a by product of better aerodynamics and more power/torque, the benefits of which can be felt on the road without having to drive flat out in top gear. Of course, top speed sells!
I'd still like to drive an F1 car even though I'm sure I'd be miles off of the pace.
Just because I feel like being totally pedantic, the F1 that did 243mph was tweaked ever so slightly from standard - the rev limiter was raised slightly to unlock a bit of extra performance. In 1998, Andy Wallace recorded 236mph in the standard XP5 car before he did the record-setting runs. Autocar did a great feature at the time that I probably still have somewhere.
As for using hypercar performance, I believe that Bugatti customers are able to utilise the Ehra-Lessien facility as part of their ownership experience?
As for using hypercar performance, I believe that Bugatti customers are able to utilise the Ehra-Lessien facility as part of their ownership experience?
BelfastBoy said:
Just because I feel like being totally pedantic, the F1 that did 243mph was tweaked ever so slightly from standard - the rev limiter was raised slightly to unlock a bit of extra performance. In 1998, Andy Wallace recorded 236mph in the standard XP5 car before he did the record-setting runs. Autocar did a great feature at the time that I probably still have somewhere.
As for using hypercar performance, I believe that Bugatti customers are able to utilise the Ehra-Lessien facility as part of their ownership experience?
I thought that even Andy Wallace's attempt was with rev limiter raised or disabled. And 240+ was only possible with non-standard gear ratios. I guess the latter is forgivable if they were a factory option. Were they? As for using hypercar performance, I believe that Bugatti customers are able to utilise the Ehra-Lessien facility as part of their ownership experience?
Toltec said:
I think a better definition is that art exists to evoke a complex response in the person experiencing it, ideally a positive one. By that mark it is anything but pointless.
Having said that I find Euler's Identity beautiful and it is not art, but an expression of the universe.
Indeed - things don't necessarily have to be art, in order to be beautiful.Having said that I find Euler's Identity beautiful and it is not art, but an expression of the universe.
If it's any consolation, I like Honda NSX suspension arms...
Why not just go the Vector route and claim your car can do 270mph without ever testing it?
Plenty of websites out there will happily pass it off as fact despite the total lack of evidence.
For McLaren they've missed the boat, 20 years ago they would have had the money to build their own supercar test track thanks to the F1 money. Their only hope is to ask VW very nicely, repeatedly. Or rise above the pathetic willy-waving of top speed numbers.
Plenty of websites out there will happily pass it off as fact despite the total lack of evidence.
For McLaren they've missed the boat, 20 years ago they would have had the money to build their own supercar test track thanks to the F1 money. Their only hope is to ask VW very nicely, repeatedly. Or rise above the pathetic willy-waving of top speed numbers.
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