BMW Finance Decline

[Derek 911]

troika said:

Derek 911 said:

This forum is more like a dick measuring contest for who has the most money, the reality is no one knows me or cares about me so ‘they are not trying to help me’ by ‘flaming me’

To me it just reads like they are having a bitter dig about my personal and financial situation cos they are bitter or smug or a combo of both about their own. And for the record I asked about credit scores, my personal situation and finances were called into discussion due to endless comments about not affording what I’m doing which again continues.

I’m just gonna leave it here cos the majority tone of this thread has been more idiots and dick measuring so thank you to the genuine people who did comment on the elements of my credit score it’s reinforced some of the thoughts I had and made me think about other options.

For the rest of the guys just piling in and telling me I’m behind you and what I should do your all my hero’s talking big st on the Internet you must have really set the world on fire and I don’t care what you have done would of done or are going to do the forum brings people together to discuss cars and elements relating to them which could have been in a positive way helping me out with my credit score question instead you all just pitch in and give it ‘awww you can’t arford this & what an idiot my mortgage is paid off and I have this and that and blah blah.

Honestly who really cares you don’t know me and your not trying to help me so get over yourself and find another outlet for your narcissism cos putting folk down on the Internet is childish no matter how mature you may say you are with your finances you have lot to learn about being a decent human being.

To qualify my comments, I worked in the leasing industry for 20 years. BMW have made the correct and responsible decision. Sell the Pork and adopt banger economics for a few years.

I don’t want 100k of cars on tick that’s just distorting facts to suit your point seems to be the culture on here. If you read back I said I was looking at 2nd hand M3’s 35k and id put 10k into that warren buffet also said if it appreciates own it & if it depreciates lease it so sticking feathers up your arse doesn’t make you a chicken your post makes it sound like I’m doing something which I wouldn’t go to that level of debt for a car.

[Derek 911]

troika said:

Derek 911 said:

I don’t want 100k of cars on tick that’s just distorting facts to suit your point seems to be the culture on here. If you read back I said I was looking at 2nd hand M3’s 35k and id put 10k into that warren buffet also said if it appreciates own it & if it depreciates lease it so sticking feathers up your arse doesn’t make you a chicken your post makes it sound like I’m doing something which I wouldn’t go to that level of debt for a car.

Please, save the financial advice. Why can’t you just buy a decent car for £10K? Why do you need a £35K car in addition to a £40K pork? What happens when they both throw a big bill at the same time? Based on what I’ve seen, I wouldn’t underwrite you for a lease on Kia, let alone an M3. Sounds harsh, but that’s reality.

Well this thread proves that the underwriters might not understand the 39k debt for Porsche 911 is getting settled traded in for the M3 of similar value cos no one on this forum can seem to grasp it.

It’s a very judgemental vibe on here it’s nothing to do with not taking critisim it’s just a bunch of wkers wanting to show off online I never mentioned money or my earnings or what I done or whatever I just tried to qualify myself to the abuse I was getting for not affording what I’m doing which I clearly can. It may not be the wisest in terms of long term savings etc but I am not alone in the fact cars like those are often an emotive purchase for some and I don’t see the problem in that if they can service the debt.

I also agreed with the missed payments on my credit card thing and took the responsibility for it saying it was careless but not financially stretched so I’m not mad on the attitudes on here but thanks for the ones that seem ok and have offered advice to credit score profile talk.

[Derek 911]

I’ve obviously come to the wrong place to ask the question & I’m not good enough on two levels.

1. As I finance cars
2. Because I reply quickly on my phone in text abbreviation.

So really it’s not me that needs to get over myself it’s the attitude on this forum that’s ste as others have said the people asking questions and putting me down were the ones that degenerated the whole thing into a dick measuring contest which I had no interest in and want no part in it’s boring like the majority of you.

[Derek 911]

Durzel said:

No one is putting you down. Some people are trying to give you some hard truths about your leveraged position and desire to leverage it further.

I don’t see any of that kind of advice I see lot of bragging about how driving old cars and paying off your mortgage is better than being an idiot like me and taking finance on a new or newish car.

It’s a self righteous dicky attitude summed up by correcting grammar & bragging about ‘the queens bank’

The bottom line is this:

1. Missed payments is bad my fault not through affordability but complacency so let’s clear that up AGAIN before the ‘you can’t afford these car’s talk starts again’

2. Maybe sell the Porsche to clear the debt so it looks good for underwriting as like most of you on here they can’t join the dots together than one debt replaces another.

3. Pay off the 2 grand on credit card

I’ve had decent levels of finance for cars like this for 15 years and always been approved and never missed any payments on any loan and never VT’d or settled anything early until the last one which I was told to do by Bmw finance.

So to sum up the entire thread the above was the only useful information to come out of it. Nothing positive to say about cars or owning them just a bunch of morons bragging about their lot in life and honestly who gives a fk who has a 120k watch collection I couldn’t stick people like you have lot to learn about manners and being decent human being.

Internet geeks and keyboard warriors judging everyone then saying ‘no one is judging you we are trying to help, drive an old banger like us sad fks and count your pennies and slag anyone who goes out and buys anything half decent that isn’t bought with cash blasphemy.

Wether your right or wrong in that attitude your still all aholes for turning a simple thread about credit score into a vehicle to show off how wealthy you are.

[Derek 911]

devnull said:

If I'm honest, if you want to be judged, go on the MoneySavingExpert forum and start this thread again You'll have a bunch of internet nerds come round and tie you to a burning stake in about 36 minutes (on average).

dheads.com sorry pistonheads.com forum is bad enough for it little decent advice, differing of financial strategies and planning for the future etc could have been presented or said in a reasonable manner but the general tone was ‘your a dhead you going to cause a recession my house is paid off, I’m loaded and therefore better than you’

I’m not in the slightest offended by it cos it’s just a bunch of idiots I don’t know and have no influence on my life but I’m just saying:

Piston heads to me looks like it has nothing to do with cars just for the self righteous, narcissistic, independently wealthy and of course those who speak with the correct pronunciation and the queens English
Dahling.

wky forum for wky people

[Derek 911]

forzaminardi said:

Derek 911 said:

So other than the obvious sit and wait and pay bills on time I would assume sitting at 760 I’m not gonna get anywhere soon by paying off the balance on the credit card and getting the boost from the utilisation ratio?

I have been approved for bad car finance like 15-18% Apr crap up to like 25k but obviously the bmw pcp finance is the high end of the market and would need better score than current I assume but even if I boost it up then the late payments will just give me an instant no?

If you want a better rating, you should make the minimum payment every month for a few years. Obviously that will cost you more money, but hey ho. Credit rating isn't just about whether you can afford to repay whatever you borrow, it's also about how much money the lender can make out of you. Things like VTing, paying the full balance on a card, repaying loans and mortgages early are all things that to you and I are sensible common sense things to do, but make lenders thing "we're not going to make a penny".

I was amazed to find I had a 999 out of 999 credit rating a couple of weeks ago. I didn't think y credit was bad, but I didn't think it was that 'good'. My only rationale is that I've never ever missed any payment on anything, I have a mortgage, an outstanding personal loan and a pretty big sum on a 0% credit card and a small variable sum on a regular use card that having had for 15 years I have sometimes paid the full amount and sometimes not.

You mean you don’t have a 120k watch collection and buy M3’s cash while also running a ‘shed’ to work & investing in crypto cos your entire existence is superior to every other human on earth?

Shame on you for having a mortgage I say.

Your going to cause a crash with that personal loan you have and a high balance credit card too?

Ohhhh I think I’m going to have to go wk off to my savings account to make myself feel better, dealing with the great unwashed makes me feel so flustered.

There I seem to be settling into membership on pistonheads, thanks guys for showing me the error of my ways.

And to qualify your actual point, yeah I get what your saying about credit scores and I said from start I wouldn’t have done the VT if I knew it would been factor I thought I was getting the E92 as a runner.

Also I understand they want to see you make minimum monthly so you make money and I have cost them by settling early etc I get all that.

[Derek 911]

RedSwede said:

It sounds like you're doing pretty well, and could get by financing these cars OK. But, for one reason or another, you have been rejected, and on paper factors mean there isn't much you can do about it.

You can live your life maxed out (M3? Why not Panamera Turbo?), or you can save to be buried with it (2001 V70 D5 will do just fine). Or you could just take a balanced re-assesment - there are loads of Approved low-milage M235is for just over 20k.

Think about what this hassle is bringing you - having a 911 and an M3 - and ask is it worth it. (I am not going to preach - but a bit for the future is good too). You are lucky - Scotland is beautiful and one of the best places to enjoy driving. A good road in an M235i is going to be a great day out. A GT3 RS in Surrey is going to be about 10% of the fun of that.

Relax, live so you're not constantly arranging financial commitments, get something nice and take the time to enjoy it

Cheers for the input and yeah I tend to agree with lot of that. I bought the 911 cos I was sick of losing money on the bmw’s but my heart rules my head in this and I just prefer Bmw as my daily over a 911.

I would have some nice equity in a gen 2 997 in 2-3 years time but I would just rather drive a bmw again so it is the way it is. Again I agree on the purchase price coming down and going secondhand to reduce the amount borrowed

[Derek 911]

What he’s said is the most balanced post & kinda what I would expect from a grown adult not a bunch of kids trying to show off or act billy big.

Yes it may be a bit irresponsible to pay finance on an expensive car but if you can afford to service the debt then you are not harming anyone or the economy in anyway in fact there is an argument that I am contributing to private companies profits in the process of my car buying with the exception of the VT which I was advised to do to facilitate more lending from the same company.

I was of the opinion after being rejected for the new car that it was a little bit of relief anyway as I thought well just buy a secondhand one stick 10k down and finance a balance of 20-25 it’s more manageable for me and I don’t need the pcp anyway for the kinda car I want I don’t care about the Joneses the new plates the supercars etc I just like Bmw M cars lot of people do they are great daily drivers.

[Derek 911]

Adults don’t brag about having ‘an account with the queens bank’ & insult people saying I’m the reason recessions happen when I’ve never defaulted on a single credit agreement or lived beyond my means even in hard times in the country I managed to turn it around and do well so all this talk of relative earnings was brought up by the wkers on here and judging by some of the comments by other members who are eating the popcorn watching I’m not the only one who thinks there are some real roasters on this forum.

For the record I’m not offended about anything I just think there’s some people who contributed nothing to this thread but abuse and need to learn some manners I also don’t care about who owns what ‘shed’ and ‘bangernomics’ while having millions in the bank or whatever other old money middle class nonsense is being spouted like gospel. Your a long time dead some folk like to spend what they earn and save modest amounts 10-20% earnings and have good time with the rest my thing is cars & I like relatively new ones & ive never caused a recession buying them.

You guys like to drive around in older model machines and save lot of your money no one is right or wrong it’s just how you choose to live but the self righteous attitude about it tells me your bitter about the choices and walk by your local Bmw or Audi dealer wishing you could drive a new M3 or RS4 off the lot but your too tight to deal with depreciation and that’s fine but doesn’t mean you have the right to abuse the folk who maybe do want to do that.

[Derek 911]

tannhauser said:

tgclowes said:

DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.

I disagree entirely.

A bury your head in the sand mentality it crazy. The writing is on the wall - we haven't seen anything like what is coming.

I agree with you in many ways, I’m not some yuppie wannabe living on the never never wanting 911s & M3’s and backing someone into a corner and insulting them isn’t a good start on first impressions for a new user so maybe as a community this forum should think about how they treat new members.

Anyway back on why I agree with you, I feel personally these cars are just not worth the list prices for a start it’s been falsely inflated by the pcp product & it’s pure greed by the manufacturers and finance units rubbing their hands together until the level of toxic debt coming from the cars like my old 330 derv going off hire early and costing them a fortune or even if the loan matured to 4 years they still would have lost fast cos the secondhand car market is flooded with these things.

It sold on AUC Bmw for 20k, in old days beemers would keep 50% residual value at 3 years old that thing depreciated like a jag and what a bargain secondhand but a further example of the problems that could come in the market with the new cars.

This is just one market of course but since it’s a car forum it’s a subject we all know well.

[Derek 911]

RM88 said:

I was talking about you behaving like an adult. Listen I'm with you on getting new 'nice' cars. I currently lease an Audi S3 and claim a hefty percentage of running costs back as a business expense. Some people here would probably scoff at that but I wouldn't fly off the handle and label a whole forum as wkers who don't like cars and are here to offend people shocker as people value things differently?!

Your reaction is always going to get the responses you're getting.

Read back on the posts the neg tone didn’t originate with me, I asked some questions some were kind enough to answer.

I then defended and qualified my position somewhat in as nice way as possible as I could despite being told I was a twit. I kept correcting assumptions on the level of my borrowing aswell and also other financial commitments cos again my other outgoings from ‘moving home’ were brought into question and the general tone that I was somehow part of ‘the great unwashed who did not deserve to drive a bmw as I was financing it’

Others waded in with what is being described as the ‘usual PH dick measuring, I have more than you etc’

[Derek 911]

RM88 said:

I was talking about you behaving like an adult. Listen I'm with you on getting new 'nice' cars. I currently lease an Audi S3 and claim a hefty percentage of running costs back as a business expense. Some people here would probably scoff at that but I wouldn't fly off the handle and label a whole forum as wkers who don't like cars and are here to offend people shocker as people value things differently?!

Your reaction is always going to get the responses you're getting.

To reply to you on that aswel I also have a limited company so some of costs of motoring are tax deductable on the business mileage again it depends how you qualify it to yourself it is a waste of money all cars are but if you like them and you can afford there is a middle ground of enjoyment.

[Derek 911]

DonkeyApple said:

Derek 911 said:

I get what your saying I’m 38 in a couple of months for reference, I’m from Scotland so this is relative to house prices as I believe some on here will be down south so ill say that first I have a nice newish build 2 Bed room semi property which is valued around 120k I probably owe around 80 or so on the mortgage at the moment I’ve had couple of failed relationships for various reasons and I’m not gonna go into the boring elements of that but basically over the medium term I don’t see myself trying to put on that suit again anytime soon and i have maybe been considering trading down into a nice new build flat for around the 80k mark which would obviously leave me with only 40k on mortgage to pay off over next 5-7 year period I see that being a reality.

So sorry to go into all that to qualify my personal situation but since it’s relative to the money chat then I thought I would throw it in.

I’m a glorified money lender, one way or another and have been my whole career. Because I personally carry an element of risk to my clients I have always operate on the conservative side. Banks and finance houses because they sold on their client risk didn’t have to after the deregulation of the late 90s but a lot of this regulation has been put back in place and now lenders are looking once again at the default risk. Plus, we all know that the cost of debt is increasing and that we are now heading into the default period so that means more prudence anyway.

Now, you mention a property worth £120k and a debt against that of £80k. A few years ago that would be deemed a nice bit a margin by another lender as getting a lien on that equity was plausible. Today lenders have a different mind set as we are in a different place in the market. If I wanted to get you out of that asset then I know I wouldn’t be selling at. £120. It’s worth closer to £100k to get it away in a good fashion. At the same time I have the cost of getting you out of it. The time it will take and then the very strong risk that you do a significant amount of damage to it to screw me over. On the basic numbers you show I personally would consider there to be no security to be had from that asset in this market as a lender.

On top of that, you already have a large outstanding debt on a 911. If the market softens then values of this type of car are going to get hit and my margin as a lender squeezed very quickly. As the price falls it is my margin that is being eroded. And again, taking cars off driveways isn’t as easy as made out as they very often aren’t on the driveway in these situations. But in terms of lending for another car I’d be reckoning that you already had enough exposure and risk to that sector and be reluctant to risk adding to it.

Then there is the aspect of being self employed. Sod that, I’m afraid. That’s a real killer. Gives you far too much wriggle room to bugger me about as you approach default. You’d be amazed at how much more compliant a client is who works a 9-5 as an employee of an established firm.

And you’re in construction. Can you guess what type of industry worker really likes to default?

The key here is that in the last two years the way the lending industry has worked has been reverting to the pre 97 era as we are now in the rising rate phase and therefore entering the default period. It’s a different mindset. Gone is the ease of lending against assets that have been going up in value and easy employment. It’s now all about focusing on ensuring enough margin on any loans, secure enough income streams and how quickly you can seize and offload the asset.

It’s not anyone picking on you specifically but it is just that you are attempting to do yesterday’s type of finance deal in today’s world.

Thank you for taking the time to write that and also in the non offensive manner in which you delivered it, civility and manners cost nothing and you reap what you sow when it comes to respect.

You make lot of sense and I can understand why these factors may be working against me at this stage, in your professional opinion then. If I was hell bent in changing my 911 & getting back in with a nice newish M3 then to make me more appealing for some lending I should:

1. Budget for secondhand 30-35 car.
2. Put in 10-15k deposit minimum.
3. Give credit score 3-6 months to get a break
4. Settle porsche before trying finance again.

I would guess the above is not just more appealing to finance companies but also financially more prudent and I was kinda swaying that way anyway it wasn’t fun losing 25k in 3 years on the 330d wether I could afford it or not doesn’t matter still just stings.

[Derek 911]

DonkeyApple said:

tannhauser said:

tgclowes said:

DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.

I disagree entirely.

A bury your head in the sand mentality it crazy. The writing is on the wall - we haven't seen anything like what is coming.

Very true but it’s who it will impact that is relevant. The OP has an £80k mortgage. So if mortgage rates go to 15% that’s still a core household liability of £1000/month which is easily covered through work assuming no ill health.

Debt on cars would default and you’d enter into a repayment agreement that was easily manageable.

So for someone in the OP’s situation where they aren’t living beyond their means in terms of property debt then very little would change in terms of lifestyle other than not having a nice car.

Where the big change in lifestyle is going to occur in a hypothetical scenario such as this is at retirement if a significant % of income has not been invested into procuring a suitable income in the future once employment opportunities have ended. That’s the key problem that faces most consumers in the U.K. today. They are spending the 20%-30% of their income that they need to be saving to sythensise income post employment on consuming goods and services now. This is the area where people are getting confused over affordability and most will only realise that error at the point where employment income ceases to be available to them which starts at around 55 in the U.K.

What you are specifically talking about on this thread is the more immediate risk of credit default due to short term rises in the cost of that debt. Very generally speaking those most at risk are those with the largest property debt and the weakest ability to bridge rising costs on that.

PH loves to attack the lowest income earners for their profligate spending but they have little to no risk as their lifestyle isn’t going to manifestly change due to rising debt costs or a failure to build a suitable savings buffer or pension plan. They are actually totally free to piss away as much money as they can on whatever they want as when it all goes wrong their lives don’t change significantly.

What PH always overlooks is that it is those who now have higher, middle incomes but have retained the consumption habits of a poorer past or adopted them that are at risk of significant lifestyle changes due to rising debt costs that as you rightly say are coming.

Personally, I think the OP is golden in regards to what may be looming in the short term. Apart from dropping the nice car I don’t see any reason to expect a change in lifestyle. It is arguably, those having a pop at him who are more likely to incur that lifestyle change due to rising debt costs!!!

Thanks for someone fighting my corner at least.

I expected to lose money on the 330 I expect to lose money on the m3 it’s a heart rule the head decision & as some nice chaps on the forum have said there is defo a middle ground where I can find reasonable levels of debt vs levels of enjoyment.

for the record again I never wanted that figure to be 100k debt on cars.

maybe doing 60k on an M3 comp pack is nuts and yeah they have probably done me a favour but as has been stated elsewhere on the thread the PCP toxic bubble makes that 60k car relatively affordable to those on ok levels of household income who perhaps should show some more sense and buy something cheaper but won’t as options available to them have been hugely exaggerated.

I feel this post explains my position best.
If I go out and buy a 35k M3 and put a big percentage in that is solution for me so I have 6 months to save and let credit score repair I could drive 997 in that time cos unlike the 330 it won’t depreciate much.

In terms of the bubble bursting again yes I could easily afford my mortgage debt if interest rates rose I would be ok might just need to drive an older Bm who cares.

[Derek 911]

Derek 911 said:

tells me your bitter about the choices and walk by your local Bmw or Audi dealer wishing you could drive a new M3 or RS4

DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.

I’m not bitter about anything I just think lot of you on here think your something special cos you stocked your cupboards up with tins of spam and sold your used Primark clothes on eBay for 50p just to get a decent balance in your bank account and you now look down on anyone and everyone who has spent a bit of their income on a loan for a nice car.

It doesn’t make you any better. in lot of ways the attitude makes you worse cos it just doesn’t come across as a nice person, anyone who wants to judge my character rather than my finances can look back through posts and see that I was only defending myself from the abuse that was started by the general PH superior society members

[Derek 911]

MDMA . said:

Genuine question OP. If the 997 sold and the loan cleared, without borrowing any more money, could you not get yourself into another BMW ( somewhat older/sporty ) anyway? If it's purely for daily driving, even for a year or two, would a sub 10k car not be the better option? Then the M3 Comp pack will be another 15-20k less than they are now.

I’ll be honest and say yes it was something I had thought about before coming to this thread I thought my credit score was screwed anyway so I was going to look at e46 or e92 as a daily and just sell the Porsche as a daily I don’t get on with it & I can’t really justify the expense for a wkend car with the recent change in my circumstances it’s just pointless waste of 700 a month for a car I would barely drive.

[Derek 911]

silentbrown said:

DonkeyApple said:

A lot of lenders now look at tax paid as this has always been a really good indicator of someone’s ability and also desire to repay a debt. The more tax efficient an individual is tends to suggest they might be a bit trickier to enforce on, plus they might not have as much as you’re led to believe on cursory inspection.

Interesting, thanks!

How is that disclosed? I naively thought the amount of tax I paid would be a confidential matter between me and HMRC...

Bmw asked me for tax returns and I would assume they’ll check companies house

[Derek 911]

silentbrown said:

Derek 911 said:

Bmw asked me for tax returns and I would assume they’ll check companies house

Was that straight off the mark, or only after they'd received the initial application?

That came after I failed the initial credit scoring test.
The garage putting it through asked for it to build a clearer picture of my situation as they thought it might have been something silly stopping it from running through didn’t help bmw finance never mentioned the credit score to them but when I sent an email to the underwriters asking why they just sent out a generic check your score reply.

When I come to think of it I think they asked for the accounts when I got the 330d but I obviously sailed through everything on that as my credit score is normally good.

[Derek 911]

Buster73 said:

Derek 911 said:

silentbrown said:

DonkeyApple said:

A lot of lenders now look at tax paid as this has always been a really good indicator of someone’s ability and also desire to repay a debt. The more tax efficient an individual is tends to suggest they might be a bit trickier to enforce on, plus they might not have as much as you’re led to believe on cursory inspection.

Interesting, thanks!

How is that disclosed? I naively thought the amount of tax I paid would be a confidential matter between me and HMRC...

Bmw asked me for tax returns and I would assume they’ll check companies house

They’re checking to see if you can afford it , it’s not the first time I’ve heard of accounts being requested by BMW finance arm , ( Alphera) ?

Clydesdale don’t ask for this so assume Alphera more stringent on this front, Clydesdale request bank statements only

[Derek 911]

Taaaaang said:

There are some people writing on this thread that need to take a really long hard look at themselves; and I don't mean the OP.

What is wrong with you lot?

Pathetic.

Yeah thanks again for another decent member fighting my corner.

I know my borrowing for a depreciating M3 or 911 can hardly be seen as that sensible as it’s a want not a need.

However I feel there is a fine line between sensible & responsible of which I have been treading for a long time with relative success I.e I don’t have bad debt for any of this or causing any issues to anyone.

I appreciate all that has been put out by decent people in a polite manner regarding my score and future and past borrowing habits.

For the ones that brought it down into some kind of old money middle class jag XJ driving sheepskin coat wearing cock wars it was all a bit boring.