Cars that made no impact or contribution to motoring
Discussion
You could probably say Proton's entire output has made a limited contribution - from uglier rehashed Mitsubishi Lancers that did not move things on, and seemed to fail to help the brand to flourish in the same way that Kia or Hyundai managed to do from similarly humble beginnings. They just made worse and worse cars.
Yes I know there was the Satria GTI and some Lotus involvement, but mostly just dross.
Yes I know there was the Satria GTI and some Lotus involvement, but mostly just dross.
white_goodman said:
That's all fine. I'm just not sure why you picked out those two cars in particular over say a Daewoo Tacuma or Vauxhall Vectra.
I leave it to other people to post the obvious ones. I like to create discussion, it has worked in this case. 
"The Legacy never enjoyed the success of the Impreza in world rallying and the Impreza is the Subaru rally car that people will remember. "
That doesn't change that fact that McRae in the Legacy is what got the duo noticed.
"Going by your argument, most cars after the Model T Ford would belong in this thread. "
Well no, but about 65% of them. That's a lot of cars.
"I read it more in terms of that model not moving the game on for its manufacturer or offering any tangible benefits over its contemporary competition. The Diablo that you mentioned was I believe briefly the fastest production car that one could buy, so I wouldn't say that it made no impact."
Only OP knows what he meant, the rest of us have to interpret it in our own ways. I read it as "Cars that didn't do anything new for the industry", and posted a couple that fit this criteria: They didn't create a new niche and they didn't reinvent anything; lots of people like them but that's like saying "lots of people like Gala apples". Gala apples still look and taste like apples. If they were apples that were banana-shaped then one could say they have brought something new to the party. Or apples that taste like strawberries. But no, they're just apples.
"As for the demographic of Impreza drivers, I'm sure that you have statistical proof other than your own narrow-minded prejudices."
You accuse others of being narrowminded yet display exactly the same traits yourself when you refuse to acknowledge that the Legacy was what got McRae and Subaru noticed in the WRC just because you like the Impreza more.
white_goodman said:
I'm not saying you're wrong but in what way was the 45 worse? Wasn't it more of a styling update and spawned the sporty MG ZS, which some say had one of the best small car chassis at the time and was pretty underrated in V6 form.
Almera Tino is pretty horrid I'll grant you but when I was selling VW, we used to go for a drink after work on a Saturday with the Nissan/Renault guys down the road and I think it sold OK at the time. A Scenic or Picasso with Japanese reliability really, which although it has no appeal to me, I can see would appeal to some folks. Surely this is worse?
The Rover 45 was the Rover 400, but with 'Project Drive' in full swing. Anything remotely luxurious in the original rover 400 had been replaced with lesser, cheaper components. Covers hiding screws, soundproofing, leather handbrakes/gearknobs, real wood, interior handles, rear headrests, piping along the seats - all removed to save money.Almera Tino is pretty horrid I'll grant you but when I was selling VW, we used to go for a drink after work on a Saturday with the Nissan/Renault guys down the road and I think it sold OK at the time. A Scenic or Picasso with Japanese reliability really, which although it has no appeal to me, I can see would appeal to some folks. Surely this is worse?
Edited by white_goodman on Friday 23 March 19:03
I spent the weekend in a Renault Fluence hire car that the GF obtained.
Bland, gutless, uncomfortable, not especially economical, practical or pleasant in any way.
I can't think of a single thing that this car does that another car doesn't do better. Neither can I think of any combination of what this car does that another doesn't do better. It has no real justification for its existence.
I'd like this vehicle to be given the award for least polished turd in the motoring world.
Bland, gutless, uncomfortable, not especially economical, practical or pleasant in any way.
I can't think of a single thing that this car does that another car doesn't do better. Neither can I think of any combination of what this car does that another doesn't do better. It has no real justification for its existence.
I'd like this vehicle to be given the award for least polished turd in the motoring world.
nickchallis92 said:
The Rover 45 was the Rover 400, but with 'Project Drive' in full swing. Anything remotely luxurious in the original rover 400 had been replaced with lesser, cheaper components. Covers hiding screws, soundproofing, leather handbrakes/gearknobs, real wood, interior handles, rear headrests, piping along the seats - all removed to save money.
Ok. Thanks, that makes sense. Did that all happen straight away though? I sold them new for a short time. The changeover from 400 to 45 was around 2000 (W plate)?. The early 45s seemed alright but then seemed to go down in quality around 2003/2004. Likewise with the 25 and the 75 facelift?Rovinghawk said:
I spent the weekend in a Renault Fluence hire car that the GF obtained.
Bland, gutless, uncomfortable, not especially ECONOMICAL, practical or pleasant in any way.
I can't think of a single thing that this car does that another car doesn't do better. Neither can I think of any combination of what this car does that another doesn't do better. It has no real justification for its existence.
I'd like this vehicle to be given the award for least polished turd in the motoring world.
Isn't the Fluence an electric car?Bland, gutless, uncomfortable, not especially ECONOMICAL, practical or pleasant in any way.
I can't think of a single thing that this car does that another car doesn't do better. Neither can I think of any combination of what this car does that another doesn't do better. It has no real justification for its existence.
I'd like this vehicle to be given the award for least polished turd in the motoring world.
TWPC said:
The 1980s Nissan Stanza was awful, as was the rest of the Nissan range then. It was anonymous and boring but I sometimes wonder if their total lack of appeal to significant tranches of the European car buying public was a contributory factor to Nissan's decision to build the factory in Sunderland and, later, design offices in Europe too. i.e. Since we clearly don't understand the market, we must get closer to it.
Nissans (and Toyota) brought reliability and longevity to cheap, family cars though. uuf361 said:
Ford Ecosport
In its original South American market it was probably considered to be a small, decent quality SUV for normal people. It quite possibly did make an impact.We rented a Mk1 model in Argentina and it was great for the dirt tracks. It seemed to be a mixture of Fusion/mk6 Fiesta with the looks of a Ford Explorer and a 1.6 single cam(?) engine.
It wasn't fast at 4000m+, but it kept going.
BarbaricAvatar said:
I leave it to other people to post the obvious ones. I like to create discussion, it has worked in this case.
"The Legacy never enjoyed the success of the Impreza in world rallying and the Impreza is the Subaru rally car that people will remember. "
That doesn't change that fact that McRae in the Legacy is what got the duo noticed.
"Going by your argument, most cars after the Model T Ford would belong in this thread. "
Well no, but about 65% of them. That's a lot of cars.
"I read it more in terms of that model not moving the game on for its manufacturer or offering any tangible benefits over its contemporary competition. The Diablo that you mentioned was I believe briefly the fastest production car that one could buy, so I wouldn't say that it made no impact."
Only OP knows what he meant, the rest of us have to interpret it in our own ways. I read it as "Cars that didn't do anything new for the industry", and posted a couple that fit this criteria: They didn't create a new niche and they didn't reinvent anything; lots of people like them but that's like saying "lots of people like Gala apples". Gala apples still look and taste like apples. If they were apples that were banana-shaped then one could say they have brought something new to the party. Or apples that taste like strawberries. But no, they're just apples.
"As for the demographic of Impreza drivers, I'm sure that you have statistical proof other than your own narrow-minded prejudices."
You accuse others of being narrowminded yet display exactly the same traits yourself when you refuse to acknowledge that the Legacy was what got McRae and Subaru noticed in the WRC just because you like the Impreza more.
The OP only wrote one sentence, so you obviously didn't read the OP very thoroughly. Regardless of whether you like them or not, I wouldn't see that by any measure the Impreza and Evo are cars that no-one will remember with fondness or describe either of them as beige."The Legacy never enjoyed the success of the Impreza in world rallying and the Impreza is the Subaru rally car that people will remember. "
That doesn't change that fact that McRae in the Legacy is what got the duo noticed.
"Going by your argument, most cars after the Model T Ford would belong in this thread. "
Well no, but about 65% of them. That's a lot of cars.
"I read it more in terms of that model not moving the game on for its manufacturer or offering any tangible benefits over its contemporary competition. The Diablo that you mentioned was I believe briefly the fastest production car that one could buy, so I wouldn't say that it made no impact."
Only OP knows what he meant, the rest of us have to interpret it in our own ways. I read it as "Cars that didn't do anything new for the industry", and posted a couple that fit this criteria: They didn't create a new niche and they didn't reinvent anything; lots of people like them but that's like saying "lots of people like Gala apples". Gala apples still look and taste like apples. If they were apples that were banana-shaped then one could say they have brought something new to the party. Or apples that taste like strawberries. But no, they're just apples.
"As for the demographic of Impreza drivers, I'm sure that you have statistical proof other than your own narrow-minded prejudices."
You accuse others of being narrowminded yet display exactly the same traits yourself when you refuse to acknowledge that the Legacy was what got McRae and Subaru noticed in the WRC just because you like the Impreza more.
"So, whilst driving home tonight, wishing i'd worked harder at school after seeing no less than three 18 plate Range Rovers and 2 M3s, I thought about what cars have manufacturers made that truely no one will remember with fondness as they were so beige and pushed no boundaries... my first thought was this, but what are your thoughts?"
As for the Impreza/Evo and rallying, I have nothing against the Legacy Turbo, it's a cool car and with Colin McRae, I think won a couple of British rally championships but was only campaigned for three or four seasons in the WRC and only won one WRC event! None of the mid-size based cars were that successful (Sierra/Legacy/Galant) hence why everyone went to the lighter more compact platforms (Escort/Impreza/Evo). Granted, with six back-to-back constructor's championships, Lancia dominated rallying in the late 80s/early 90s but sensibly, they retired it in 1993, as it was no longer competitive with the newer rally cars i.e. the Impreza/Evo, which dominated rallying for the next 10 years. The Toyota Celica also deserves an honourable mention for 2 constructors and 4 driver's titles in the 1990s.
The Impreza has over 40 WRC victories under its belt, three constructors titles and three driver's titles (it was the car that Colin McRae and Richard Burns both won their first WRC titles in). You also have 2 IOM TT lap records and over 150 rally championship titles from around the globe and it's still the go-to choice for privateer rally drivers and is still winning rallys around the world 25 years later! It is to modern rallying what the mk1/2 Escort is to classic rallying if you will.
Likewise, the Evo has nealy 30 WRC wins, one constructor's title and thanks to Tommi Makkinen, four back-to-back driver's titles to its name. Comapre this to the original "pioneer", the Audi Quattro with 23 WRC wins, 2 constructor's titles and no driver's titles. The Audi may have been first but post Group B, the Impreza/Evo were quicker and more sophisticated.
I can understand why you might say they weren't the first or contributed anything new but to suggest that they had NO IMPACT on motoring is ludicrous! By that measure, the Golf GTi, Porsche 911 and LR Defender also brought nothing new being preceded by the Sunbeam Lotus, Porsche 356 and Willys Jeep respectively.
I got a bit lost when you started talking about apples but if you're referring to something being popular but not very interesting or good, look at the mk5 Escort. It remained a best-seller for years despite being widely regarded as s*** but it got slated by all the car magazines and did at least teach Ford that they couldn't palm the car buying public off with sub-par products any more and they started building decent cars. Had they not bothered, then I don't think that Ford of Europe would still be doing well today. Likewise, the Almera on the OP's dismal success brought us cars like the Qashqai and Juke. Not very PH cars but pioneers in their market sectors and unmitigated sales successes.
uuf361 said:
Ford Ecosport
Anything by Perodua
Sao Penza
Most Daewoo’s
Most Ssanyong
So many more too....
I'm going to defend the Perodua here, the Myvi which is a badge engineered Daihatsu Sirion became the most popular car in Malaysia and propelled Perodua above proton and to the top of Malaysian cars, they are now the best selling car over there by a long long way.Anything by Perodua
Sao Penza
Most Daewoo’s
Most Ssanyong
So many more too....
white_goodman said:
The OP only wrote one sentence, so you obviously didn't read the OP very thoroughly. Regardless of whether you like them or not, I wouldn't see that by any measure the Impreza and Evo are cars that no-one will remember with fondness or describe either of them as beige
"So, whilst driving home tonight, wishing i'd worked harder at school after seeing no less than three 18 plate Range Rovers and 2 M3s, I thought about what cars have manufacturers made that truely no one will remember with fondness as they were so beige and pushed no boundaries... my first thought was this, but what are your thoughts?".
You're right. I didn't read the first post beyond the title. My bad. "So, whilst driving home tonight, wishing i'd worked harder at school after seeing no less than three 18 plate Range Rovers and 2 M3s, I thought about what cars have manufacturers made that truely no one will remember with fondness as they were so beige and pushed no boundaries... my first thought was this, but what are your thoughts?".
Fixed.
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