RE: Mini Cooper S Works 210: PH Fleet
Discussion
Am I the only one who just doesn't like this gen of BMW Mini? For me the proportions are all wrong. The bonnet is too long and it has a 2 litre engine now, which seems a backward step in this era of downsizing, especially when Ford are about to fit a 1.5 turbo in their ST. The car is way too expensive (28K with some choice options) and the wheels look too big!
For me the original BMW Cooper S remains the standout model. Really pretty, great proportions and characterful supercharged engine.... in fact a good choice as a future classic!
Was thinking of an early BMW Mini for my daughter, but the reliability puts me off. All the ones I see advertised with miles, seem to have MOT advisory lists as long as your arm, with new gearboxes, new power steering pumps and other expensive parts all being replaced. They don't seem to be able to build them properly!
greenarrow said:
Am I the only one who just doesn't like this gen of BMW Mini? For me the proportions are all wrong. The bonnet is too long and it has a 2 litre engine now, which seems a backward step in this era of downsizing, especially when Ford are about to fit a 1.5 turbo in their ST. The car is way too expensive (28K with some choice options) and the wheels look too big!
Its BMW using their own platform and own engines - i think its built on the upcoming 1 series platform. The plus side being you can extract serious power out of the 2.0 engine. They have a 1.5 turbo in the Cooper that is tunable too, but obviously has lower limits.So the size & shape of the car is dictated by the running gear.
greenarrow said:
For me the original BMW Cooper S remains the standout model. Really pretty, great proportions and characterful supercharged engine.... in fact a good choice as a future classic!
Was thinking of an early BMW Mini for my daughter, but the reliability puts me off. All the ones I see advertised with miles, seem to have MOT advisory lists as long as your arm, with new gearboxes, new power steering pumps and other expensive parts all being replaced. They don't seem to be able to build them properly!
Dont forget early MINIs are 15+ years old now. The oldest are now 17 years old and may not have been maintained to the standard you'd hope. Lots were just "driven". The price that they command is disproportionate to their age. Old performance hatchbacks are always going to be expensive to run.Was thinking of an early BMW Mini for my daughter, but the reliability puts me off. All the ones I see advertised with miles, seem to have MOT advisory lists as long as your arm, with new gearboxes, new power steering pumps and other expensive parts all being replaced. They don't seem to be able to build them properly!
daemon said:
Its BMW using their own platform and own engines - i think its built on the upcoming 1 series platform. The plus side being you can extract serious power out of the 2.0 engine. They have a 1.5 turbo in the Cooper that is tunable too, but obviously has lower limits.
So the size & shape of the car is dictated by the running gear.
Its the BMW 2 Litre Turbo engine now that really attracted me to the current Cooper S, all I ever read about the older engines is very poor reliability. The fact its easily tunable is another plus point. So the size & shape of the car is dictated by the running gear.
I like the fact it can be tuned to around 250bhp and you don't have to worry about its robustness because it runs that power as standard in the current 330i.
I also prefer the first generation Mini in terms of shape, but I really like the interior/equipment and overall feel of the current Mini.
cerb4.5lee said:
Its the BMW 2 Litre Turbo engine now that really attracted me to the current Cooper S, all I ever read about the older engines is very poor reliability. The fact its easily tunable is another plus point.
I like the fact it can be tuned to around 250bhp and you don't have to worry about its robustness because it runs that power as standard in the current 330i.
I also prefer the first generation Mini in terms of shape, but I really like the interior/equipment and overall feel of the current Mini.
+1I like the fact it can be tuned to around 250bhp and you don't have to worry about its robustness because it runs that power as standard in the current 330i.
I also prefer the first generation Mini in terms of shape, but I really like the interior/equipment and overall feel of the current Mini.
Thats wholly where i am on it.
Jamesxo92 said:
Very unprofessional thread Piston Heads, this is coming from someone who has been reading your articles for years.
I am an F56 Cooper S owner myself.
The title of your article is : Communicative, fast and enjoyable. These are all things that the Works 210 is, and the Mini experience isn't
Yet you do not address a single point about the car, just focusing on the fact you got a flat tyre (just like you could in any car) and yet have the cheek to talk about it's speed and enjoyment in the title, both points never addressed to the reader.
I will admit I have had a few flat tyres (Pirelli P7 Cinturato's), but like I said before, this is just car life. I don't know what you expect when they are low profile, being either 17 or 18inch on a small hatchback with the amount of potholes there is in the UK.
You cannot fit a spare wheel as the central exhaust raises the centre of the boot floor higher. Not to mention that this is a trend with the vast majority of cars coming out the factory without a spare wheel.
Unprofessional, Ill-Informed & Childish!
Just to say there have been and are forthcoming many more positive stories on the car! The point that was trying to be made here was that using a main dealer for convenience and peace of mind proved far more awkward than it should have. That and the next to useless foam. Next month's update has plenty of good things to say...I am an F56 Cooper S owner myself.
The title of your article is : Communicative, fast and enjoyable. These are all things that the Works 210 is, and the Mini experience isn't
Yet you do not address a single point about the car, just focusing on the fact you got a flat tyre (just like you could in any car) and yet have the cheek to talk about it's speed and enjoyment in the title, both points never addressed to the reader.
I will admit I have had a few flat tyres (Pirelli P7 Cinturato's), but like I said before, this is just car life. I don't know what you expect when they are low profile, being either 17 or 18inch on a small hatchback with the amount of potholes there is in the UK.
You cannot fit a spare wheel as the central exhaust raises the centre of the boot floor higher. Not to mention that this is a trend with the vast majority of cars coming out the factory without a spare wheel.
Unprofessional, Ill-Informed & Childish!
Matt
MrC986 said:
Modern Mini magazine has a feature on tuning the F56s....250 bhp is very conservative for a remap on its own.
Yes, as i said earlier, 291BHP is achievable with a remap, probably more.The constraints i think beyond 250BHP are in particular braking and traction. The braking in particular isnt wholly up to the job of effectively stopping the standard 192BHP car IMHO.
Edited by daemon on Monday 9th April 12:52
daemon said:
The braking in particular isnt wholly up to the job of effectively stopping the standard 192BHP car IMHO.
I agree with this as well and at high speed I do lack a lot of confidence in its stopping ability. When you look at the brakes they're absolutely puny and they perform that way too. The JCW brakes look a little bit more up to the job though. cerb4.5lee said:
daemon said:
The braking in particular isnt wholly up to the job of effectively stopping the standard 192BHP car IMHO.
I agree with this as well and at high speed I do lack a lot of confidence in its stopping ability. When you look at the brakes they're absolutely puny and they perform that way too. The JCW brakes look a little bit more up to the job though. Well theres good news and bad news about the JCW brakes - YES you can get a retrofit kit of all four uprated calipers, discs and pads for a not wholly unmanageable £1,100 ish for the whole kit if you shop around apparently
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MINI-Genuine-NEW-F56-JC...
The bad new is - the calipers dont fit under Cooper S alloys - you need JCW alloys OR a specific alloy offset.
There is talk that 20mm spacers give you the clearance but i've still to bottom that out.
cerb4.5lee said:
Its the BMW 2 Litre Turbo engine now that really attracted me to the current Cooper S, all I ever read about the older engines is very poor reliability. The fact its easily tunable is another plus point.
I like the fact it can be tuned to around 250bhp and you don't have to worry about its robustness because it runs that power as standard in the current 330i.
I also prefer the first generation Mini in terms of shape, but I really like the interior/equipment and overall feel of the current Mini.
The engine in the LCI version of the 2nd Gen is the reliable one, the 175BHP had issues with oil usage and timing chain/tensioners whereas the 184BHP (N18 I like the fact it can be tuned to around 250bhp and you don't have to worry about its robustness because it runs that power as standard in the current 330i.
I also prefer the first generation Mini in terms of shape, but I really like the interior/equipment and overall feel of the current Mini.
) has these issues ironed out. We have the N18 in our MCS, it uses no oil and has been the most reliable car I've owned in 27 years! Now 7 1/2 years old, we've had it 4 1/2 years and 42k. Only the ubiquitous High Pressure Fuel Pump has gone wrong.If the 330i is like the 328i to the 320i, then the engine internals are slightly different, so it's not just a mapping exercise. The 328i could always be mapped that much more than the 320i.
Saying that, 250BHP sounds good in a Cooper S
cerb4.5lee said:
Quite an expensive game all in then with the wheels too. I remember upgrading the pads on my 200sx when I took that from 200bhp to 250bhp, but they still weren't that brilliant though.
Yeah i cant see me upgrading the wheels if thats what its going to need. I'll maybe upgrade the discs and pads, fluid and hoses but leave it at that, and just clench my cheeks every time i need to brake hard..... Edited by daemon on Monday 9th April 19:18
daemon said:
Yeah i cant see me upgrading the wheels if thats what its going to need. I'll maybe upgrade the discs and pads, fluid and hoses but leave it at that, and just clench my cheeks every time i need to brake hard.....
That's a bit disapointing tbh. Doesn't the ABS trigger at will from say 50mph ? Edited by daemon on Monday 9th April 19:18
nickfrog said:
daemon said:
Yeah i cant see me upgrading the wheels if thats what its going to need. I'll maybe upgrade the discs and pads, fluid and hoses but leave it at that, and just clench my cheeks every time i need to brake hard.....
That's a bit disapointing tbh. Doesn't the ABS trigger at will from say 50mph ? Edited by daemon on Monday 9th April 19:18
daemon said:
Yeah i cant see me upgrading the wheels if thats what its going to need. I'll maybe upgrade the discs and pads, fluid and hoses but leave it at that, and just clench my cheeks every time i need to brake hard.....
You can get away with 20mm spacers on the Challenge 210 wheels, I did. I ran the JCW big brake kit on my car for 9 months before I traded it in. Standard brakes were shocking in comparison (I cooked mine coming down Hartside pass), however the JCW is purely bigger front brakes, the rear calipers are exactly the same as stock Cooper S. Keep in mind also, the JCW has a bigger master so when you fit the brakes, you dont get the same pedal feel as a proper JCW.Edited by daemon on Monday 9th April 19:18
I have been out in a couple of mapped cars, 290bhp is average from a map from Dervtech. If you go to Lohen they only quote 250bhp iirc. Most cars with the JCW tuning kit(the works 210 cars for example) actually get 230bhp on a dyno as stock with the exhaust flap open.
As a side note, for the editorial team, the "Works 210" cars are not that special, just a Cooper S with the asbo exhaust and a factory map. If you can get hold of a Challenge 210, they came with an LSD from factory and put the power down MUCH better in comparison. Mine handled significantly better than a JCW imo when I drove them back to back.
daemon said:
Yes funny you mention that- i've had it trigger on me for no apparent reason (other than going fast and braking hard on A roads / A road corners) plus you never really feel that the car is actually going to stop you. Quite disconcerting TBH. Not helped when i've usually just jumped out of the A45, and my last small hot hatch was the Clio 200 Cup running Brembos.
Ok. If the ABS triggers easily I think you're front tyre adhesion limited rather than brakes hardware limited. Maybe try and lower front pressure a little or upgrade the tyres to something a little stickier.nickfrog said:
daemon said:
Yes funny you mention that- i've had it trigger on me for no apparent reason (other than going fast and braking hard on A roads / A road corners) plus you never really feel that the car is actually going to stop you. Quite disconcerting TBH. Not helped when i've usually just jumped out of the A45, and my last small hot hatch was the Clio 200 Cup running Brembos.
Ok. If the ABS triggers easily I think you're front tyre adhesion limited rather than brakes hardware limited. Maybe try and lower front pressure a little or upgrade the tyres to something a little stickier.Another option is to not drive it like i stole it, but where would the fun be in that
daemon said:
Ok cheers - i'll try that. Thats not my primary problem though - it is the lack of braking ability. Theres Dunlop SP SportMax's on it at the minute with just 1,000 miles
Ah ah. Those cars are seriously quick.The braking ability is primarily down to the front tyres as OE brakes should give you fierce braking power, which seems to be the case if you do lock up/ trigger the ABS (same thing). In other words it's not the brakes fault if the tyres can't cope. But It's surprising that the Dunlop don't provide ample front grip, those are pretty good!. The only other thing I can think of is if your discs are glazed but then again that would mean you can't trigger the ABS easily. Or perhaps you're mainly experiencing an initial lack of bite after not having used the brakes for a while, like after a long straight? That would be because the pads/discs are really cold or full of water or both. Is a second application shortly after any better ?
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