RE: Prior Convictions: Heavy metal
Discussion
Onehp said:
JMF894 said:
Onehp said:
I can dream (of a lighter RS estate, ed.). Till then, my 370hp 1410kg kerb FWD Cupra family estate/b-road warrior will do fine...
I'm assuming it's properly sorted and has a quaife to actually be able to use it...?On topic I wish the current crop of HH would stop getting more powerful and start getting lighter. Imagine the current CTR as it is but weighing 150-200kgs less.............................
200kg, that's a Fiesta ST.
It's an economic/marketing problem. HH abide by the market rule that larger equals more value. This doesn't apply to 'real' sportscars where small and lightweight can gather a premium, whatever the customer can imagine giving.
It's an economic/marketing problem. HH abide by the market rule that larger equals more value. This doesn't apply to 'real' sportscars where small and lightweight can gather a premium, whatever the customer can imagine giving.
Edited by Onehp on Wednesday 11th April 12:34
Having just had to decide not to buy a new Focus RS as the final run all come with a lower and non-raisable seat, it's interesting to see this discussion. I'd also love to see a Fiesta RS. 240bhp would be fine but 4WD is compulsory - RS stands for Rallye Sport after all and nobody uses 2WD at the top of the WRC.
However the weight needs to be seriously addressed. The Mk1 Mexico weighted 850kg so one would have thought that with modern CAD and materials, a modern RS should weigh just over a tonne, not the two tonnes that many performance cars are now approaching. Thus the power to weight ratio would be superior. It seems we're constantly adding weight to add power to compensate for increased weight. Ditching the aircon, turbos, anti-lock brakes, stability control, launch control and much of the other electronic nonsense would both reduce weight and cost, and a 4WD Fiesta RS at say £25k would both be profitable and kill all other performance cars sales stone dead.
However the weight needs to be seriously addressed. The Mk1 Mexico weighted 850kg so one would have thought that with modern CAD and materials, a modern RS should weigh just over a tonne, not the two tonnes that many performance cars are now approaching. Thus the power to weight ratio would be superior. It seems we're constantly adding weight to add power to compensate for increased weight. Ditching the aircon, turbos, anti-lock brakes, stability control, launch control and much of the other electronic nonsense would both reduce weight and cost, and a 4WD Fiesta RS at say £25k would both be profitable and kill all other performance cars sales stone dead.
MikeDB1 said:
Ditching the aircon, turbos, anti-lock brakes, stability control, launch control and much of the other electronic nonsense would both reduce weight and cost, and a 4WD Fiesta RS at say £25k would both be profitable and kill all other performance cars sales stone dead.
probably lucky you don't run a car company eh! ;-)The number of say Fiesta's Ford would sell without those systems is precisely zero! Profitable it would not be........
Max_Torque said:
MikeDB1 said:
Ditching the aircon, turbos, anti-lock brakes, stability control, launch control and much of the other electronic nonsense would both reduce weight and cost, and a 4WD Fiesta RS at say £25k would both be profitable and kill all other performance cars sales stone dead.
probably lucky you don't run a car company eh! ;-)The number of say Fiesta's Ford would sell without those systems is precisely zero! Profitable it would not be........
Also: not lighter. I have no idea where this PH meme has come from that electronics weigh more than driveshafts.
And slow, without a turbo.
paranoid airbag said:
Literally illegal to sell mass-market without ABS, no?
Also: not lighter. I have no idea where this PH meme has come from that electronics weigh more than driveshafts.
And slow, without a turbo.
I was thinking that about weight. Only on here could removing the (largely electronic and thus light) abs system counter having a honking great propshaft and two extra diffs.Also: not lighter. I have no idea where this PH meme has come from that electronics weigh more than driveshafts.
And slow, without a turbo.
Also yes, illegal to sell any car which has a production of more than 500 per year without ABS. So I don't think it would kill all other performance car sales.
The original 4WD Impreza WRXs were 1250kg and 280 hp and they sold in huge numbers without any fancy electronics. But yes I didn't realise the production limits for getting rid of ABS were so low. I was thinking a production run of several thousand would be ok so obviously that (and an Off switch) has to be added in.
And getting rid of the fancy electronics was to cut selling price, not weight. Who actually uses 90% of the electronic nonsense that cars seem to come with nowadays ?
But I still think Ford could do a better job than Subaru and get that sort of horsepower without a turbo and hence less weight and more drivability. So for me a Fiesta naturally aspirated 4WD RS would still be the ideal machine, and probably faster than the Focus RS on anything other than a drag strip.
In the meantime, it's back to the Subaru dealer for me before they run out of WRXs.
And getting rid of the fancy electronics was to cut selling price, not weight. Who actually uses 90% of the electronic nonsense that cars seem to come with nowadays ?
But I still think Ford could do a better job than Subaru and get that sort of horsepower without a turbo and hence less weight and more drivability. So for me a Fiesta naturally aspirated 4WD RS would still be the ideal machine, and probably faster than the Focus RS on anything other than a drag strip.
In the meantime, it's back to the Subaru dealer for me before they run out of WRXs.
MikeDB1 said:
The original 4WD Impreza WRXs were 1250kg and 280 hp and they sold in huge numbers without any fancy electronics. But yes I didn't realise the production limits for getting rid of ABS were so low. I was thinking a production run of several thousand would be ok so obviously that (and an Off switch) has to be added in.
And getting rid of the fancy electronics was to cut selling price, not weight. Who actually uses 90% of the electronic nonsense that cars seem to come with nowadays ?
But I still think Ford could do a better job than Subaru and get that sort of horsepower without a turbo and hence less weight and more drivability. So for me a Fiesta naturally aspirated 4WD RS would still be the ideal machine, and probably faster than the Focus RS on anything other than a drag strip.
In the meantime, it's back to the Subaru dealer for me before they run out of WRXs.
1) You can't have an ABS off switch. This is also illegalAnd getting rid of the fancy electronics was to cut selling price, not weight. Who actually uses 90% of the electronic nonsense that cars seem to come with nowadays ?
But I still think Ford could do a better job than Subaru and get that sort of horsepower without a turbo and hence less weight and more drivability. So for me a Fiesta naturally aspirated 4WD RS would still be the ideal machine, and probably faster than the Focus RS on anything other than a drag strip.
In the meantime, it's back to the Subaru dealer for me before they run out of WRXs.
2) Modern electronics are lighter than those in older cars. Simplex wiring had a wire for absolutely everything. CAN and FlexRay have 4 wires in total to each module. Power, Ground, CAN Hi and CAN Lo. At a bare minimum, if you go for the most basic single CAN architecture you'll need a Powertrain Control Module, ABS Module, Body Control Module (to control lights etc), Transmission Control Module (or at least a basic sensor module for the gearbox and diffs) and an Airbag Control Module. That will be lighter than having Simplex wiring.
3) Legally any car of more than 500 units will need to meet crash standards for vehicle and pedestrian safety. Cutting weight out of the body in white will therefore be very difficult, which means the weight removal has to come from NVH material. In something like a Fiesta, this isn't actually that much. A base Fiesta is 1,096-1,178kg, so maybe you'd get that to around 1,050kg - 1,130kg removing the NVH material, however, you'd then need to add in a prop, diff and beef up the rear suspension to deal with the rear drive loads. The Focus RS is 100kg heavier than the ST, so if we optimistically say that's 1,150-1,230kg for just the powertrain, you then have to consider the engine. 1,096kg is with the tiny 1.1L NA, so if you manage to get a 2.0L NA past any of the Euro 6 emissions standards (which would be a struggle), you're probably looking at closer to the max weight of the Fiesta or a little bit more. Add in the required bigger wheels and stronger suspension required for the extra power/grip and you'll really struggle to get it under 1,300kg with absolutely no sound insulation.
So what you'll have is a car that has absolutely no air conditioning, no sound deadening, a low torque NA 2.0L with poor fuel economy, more grip than power and 1,300kg to haul around. It won't be particularly fast, it'll be so incredibly loud (anyone who's driven a tin top which has been stripped an attest to this), hot (the NVH material also helps to insulate from the heat coming from the powertrain), expensive to buy and expensive to run. At best you might sell 50-100 units to a very specialist group of people (as pretty much demonstrated by the Beetle RSI thing that wasn't far off this in terms of concept). Alternatively you can pay the weight penalty of 150-200kg and have a considerably faster, more enjoyable and useable car and call it a Focus RS. And you know what, it might just about sell.
The reality is, to meet modern crash requirements, and provide any semblance of refinement, a 4WD hatch of any size is going to be 1,400 to 1,600kg. Given that most of these cars are bought with man maths, and offered up as a 'practical family car love, but it's also fun for me', something the size of a Fiesta probably just won't sell. The reason all the 4WD hatches are 5 door, Golf/Focus sized and 1,500kg is because basically, that's the only size, weight and price point that sells. If you took the correct approach of making an equivalent to the Focus RS as a Fiesta with all the 'mod cons' you'd realistically only be at most 100kg lighter.
Edited by RacerMike on Saturday 14th April 11:56
Flibble said:
Also you need stability control for America (California law at least, possibly other states), so that's not getting chopped.
To be fair, that’s integral to the ABS now. Buying a brake modulator without any ESP is next to impossible (there are a few very low cost options for the India and China markets, but they’re not practical for any application bigger than a city car). Ultimately it’s ‘just’ software, and you can most definitely have an off switch on ESPRacerMike said:
1) You can't have an ABS off switch. This is also illegal
No. You can have an ABS switch for track and off-road use, you just mustn't use it on the road. Otherwise half the track and rally cars in Europe would be illegal. Imagine trying to use ABS in a production derived rally car on a forest track. On most Imprezas you can just pull the fuse in and out all day but on other cars with the fuse in an awkward place a switch is essential.MikeDB1 said:
No. You can have an ABS switch for track and off-road use, you just mustn't use it on the road. Otherwise half the track and rally cars in Europe would be illegal. Imagine trying to use ABS in a production derived rally car on a forest track. On most Imprezas you can just pull the fuse in and out all day but on other cars with the fuse in an awkward place a switch is essential.
And of course many BMWs have it as an option in their menus.MikeDB1 said:
No. You can have an ABS switch for track and off-road use, you just mustn't use it on the road. Otherwise half the track and rally cars in Europe would be illegal. Imagine trying to use ABS in a production derived rally car on a forest track. On most Imprezas you can just pull the fuse in and out all day but on other cars with the fuse in an awkward place a switch is essential.
Big difference between a track/rally car and a road car. A track/rally car isn’t homologated. Although I don’t know of many rally cars that would want competition ABS, and I don’t know of any race cars with race ABS which you can drive on the road?! I work as a calibration engineer on stability control/ABS for an OEM, so I can assure you that on a series production car it most definitely is illegal to have an ABS off switch.
MikeDB1 said:
And of course many BMWs have it as an option in their menus
They definitely don’t have an ABS off option in their menu. Stability control yes, but as I said, it’s illegal to be able to turn the ABS off on a series production car. Pulling the fuse doesn’t count as ‘a switch’ by the way. I’m assuming you’re maybe confusing the actual function ABS (the emergency braking and anti lock functions) with the general term ABS which sometimes applies to the whole modulator and software group that contains the TCS and Stability Control amongst other functions. All the other functions can be legally switched apart from ABS.Flibble said:
Mine has several methods of switching off stability control. The most comprehensive is a diagnostic mode which involves a sequence of brake pedal and handbrake inputs (basically a Konami code for the car). Even that leaves ABS on, though it disables everything else.
Ah, the old favourite ‘press mode’ 😂 But yes, it’s fairly normal (although annoyingly less common) to be able to fully switch out Stability Control and TCS. The only things that stay enabled are ABS, EBD, Torque Vectoring (usually) and if it’s an SUV, Roll Stability Control.There's generally always a "hidden" chassis rollers mode, because cars these days get an end-of-line test on chassis rolls before they roll out the factory door! However, that mode is not easily accessible to the driver, and requires either a "secret" sequence of controls, or access into the diagnostics system in some fashion. You cannot simply have an "OFF" switch on the dash for ABS legally as mentioned previously.
RacerMike said:
Flibble said:
Mine has several methods of switching off stability control. The most comprehensive is a diagnostic mode which involves a sequence of brake pedal and handbrake inputs (basically a Konami code for the car). Even that leaves ABS on, though it disables everything else.
Ah, the old favourite ‘press mode’ ?? But yes, it’s fairly normal (although annoyingly less common) to be able to fully switch out Stability Control and TCS. The only things that stay enabled are ABS, EBD, Torque Vectoring (usually) and if it’s an SUV, Roll Stability Control.Personally, I've never used it. I find the stability off mode more than adequate for track usage.
RacerMike said:
MikeDB1 said:
No. You can have an ABS switch for track and off-road use, you just mustn't use it on the road. Otherwise half the track and rally cars in Europe would be illegal.
Big difference between a track/rally car and a road car. A track/rally car isn’t homologated..Based on your argument, surely the Focus RS track mode switch setting shouldn't be there as Ford say it's illegal to use that on the road but nobody has to pull a fuse to get into it.
And as others pointed out, the BMW menu isn't labelled as such but on some models does switch off ABS as well. Not sure which as I've never needed to take a BMW around the Nürburgring but I suspect leaving it on would add about 10 to 20 seconds to any top driver's lap time. Around Silverstone it only adds just over a second, but almost 2 seconds on the shorter but more violent braking Knockhill.
As for rallies, you'd be in the trees on the first corner if ABS cut in so it's a definite must switch off, by fuse or otherwise.
MikeDB1 said:
RacerMike said:
MikeDB1 said:
No. You can have an ABS switch for track and off-road use, you just mustn't use it on the road. Otherwise half the track and rally cars in Europe would be illegal.
Big difference between a track/rally car and a road car. A track/rally car isn’t homologated..Based on your argument, surely the Focus RS track mode switch setting shouldn't be there as Ford say it's illegal to use that on the road but nobody has to pull a fuse to get into it.
And as others pointed out, the BMW menu isn't labelled as such but on some models does switch off ABS as well. Not sure which as I've never needed to take a BMW around the Nürburgring but I suspect leaving it on would add about 10 to 20 seconds to any top driver's lap time. Around Silverstone it only adds just over a second, but almost 2 seconds on the shorter but more violent braking Knockhill.
As for rallies, you'd be in the trees on the first corner if ABS cut in so it's a definite must switch off, by fuse or otherwise.
For the last few years (2012 I believe) it's been a legal requirement for all series production cars to also have Stability Control. This however, is allowed to be switchable, however it leaves ABS active.
In the UK, our unique small volume vehicle regulations mean that cars under a production volume of 500 can be SVA'd (single vehicle approved) without ABS or stability control. This means taking the individual car to a VOSA test centre for inspection, and this is exactly how Caterham sell cars in the UK (or indeed any small UK sports car manufacturer like them) and is exactly how companies like M-Sport get their rally cars a number plate. Because of this, they do not need to have ABS. These are not type approved volume cars though.
As for your comments on track driving.....I'm afraid you need to do a little more research. ABS is very much used for track driving. In fact 99% of all GT4 and GT3 cars have motorsport ABS fitted. Having raced a GT4 car, I can tell you that it is very much a driving aid and both decreases braking distances on track and greatly increases consistency and tyre life through an hour long stint. Stability Control on the other hand is not permitted by any current motorsport regulations.
To be clear once more:
ABS - Antilock Braking System - Prevents the wheels from locking and targets an optimum slip ratio on high grip surfaces. Decreases braking distances and maintains stability when braking Cannot be disabled by law and is not disabled when selecting 'DSC Off'/'Stability Control Off'/'VDC Off' or any other derivation/acronym thereof
Stability Control - Primarily a safety function designed to mitigate against oversteer and understeer situations. Utilises the brake modulator, yaw and acceleration sensors, wheel speeds, steering angle and throttle position to stabilise the car when the tyres are pushed over their grip limit through the building of brake pressure, reduction of engine torque and (in some cars) application of corrective steering lock. Can be disabled in many cars through the pressing of, or combination pressing of, the Stability Control Off button/menu button
To be clear again. You cannot disable ABS on any production car with a switch. It is illegal and no manufacturer makes a car with a switch to disable ABS
If you still don't believe me, and feel particularly keen to read through a load of legal text, look up UN-ECE 13 and fill your boots.
Also....just to add (with a bit more technical info incase you're actually interested). I have a Focus RS. It indeed has 'Drift Mode' which switches the DSC to 'Track Mode'. The ABS is still active (as it is in full DSC off), however it switches to a different map which disables engine torque downs from the TCS part of the DSC and opens the side slip targets to allow you to achieve higher side slip or 'drift' angles. Whilst it is not full DSC off, it won't pass FMVSS 126 (the US Stability Control regulation) which dictates that stability is maintained through a specific coned lane change. If the car does not pass this test in a given driving mode (due to the changing of the stability control map) it is a legal requirement for the 'Stability Control Off' Message/Tell tale to be illuminated on the dash despite the system still remaining active.
Edited by RacerMike on Monday 16th April 18:38
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