RE: BMW M5: PH Fleet
Discussion
Zod said:
Why are M5 threads always infested by x35d drivers desperate to validate their choice of car?
I've owned an M5 (E60 for five years) and an X5 40d (more powerful 35d) and I can tell you that there's no comparison. The d cars are hugely, impressively competent, but the M cars are more than that; they are involving cars to drive.
Agreed. It doesn't bother me in the slightest that someone can make very swift progress in a 35d/40d, each to their own, but at the end of the day an M5 is an M5.I've owned an M5 (E60 for five years) and an X5 40d (more powerful 35d) and I can tell you that there's no comparison. The d cars are hugely, impressively competent, but the M cars are more than that; they are involving cars to drive.
Diesels leave me feeling colder than a mother-in-law's kiss.
TobyTR said:
Zod said:
Why are M5 threads always infested by x35d drivers desperate to validate their choice of car?
I've owned an M5 (E60 for five years) and an X5 40d (more powerful 35d) and I can tell you that there's no comparison. The d cars are hugely, impressively competent, but the M cars are more than that; they are involving cars to drive.
Agreed. It doesn't bother me in the slightest that someone can make very swift progress in a 35d/40d, each to their own, but at the end of the day an M5 is an M5.I've owned an M5 (E60 for five years) and an X5 40d (more powerful 35d) and I can tell you that there's no comparison. The d cars are hugely, impressively competent, but the M cars are more than that; they are involving cars to drive.
Diesels leave me feeling colder than a mother-in-law's kiss.
TobyTR said:
Agreed. It doesn't bother me in the slightest that someone can make very swift progress in a 35d/40d, each to their own, but at the end of the day an M5 is an M5.
Diesels leave me feeling colder than a mother-in-law's kiss.
The best diesels aren't that bad.....but an 'M' is in a totally different league. Anyone who thinks that even a x35d comes close either hasn't driven an M, or wasn't trying hard enough when they did.Diesels leave me feeling colder than a mother-in-law's kiss.
TobyTR said:
I like your style and way of thinking, hat-tip.
I totally understand the argument of 335d/530d/640d real-world performance - ie. is an M5 owner really going to use more than 50% of the car's performance potential on UK roads etc. However I'll still get one.
Diesels are just mundane, boring motors. Dreadful sound, peculiar torque and power delivery, out of puff by 4000rpm... I've never got out of any performance diesel (including stints in an Alpina XD3 and D4) grinning like I have from a petrol six-cylinder/V8/V12.
My brother has an F31 335xd which is DMS mapped (390bhp) with Birds suspension, debadged with beige interior and it’s an absolute wolf in sheeps clothing. It would certainly worry my 750bhp M5 off the line because of its tractive advantage, would romp along an autobahn at 160mph all day albeit taking longer to get there, and delivers >40mpg on fast runs I only get 20mpg on. I’ve had an e70 40d myself. I think these drivetrains are brilliant and have nothing against them.I totally understand the argument of 335d/530d/640d real-world performance - ie. is an M5 owner really going to use more than 50% of the car's performance potential on UK roads etc. However I'll still get one.
Diesels are just mundane, boring motors. Dreadful sound, peculiar torque and power delivery, out of puff by 4000rpm... I've never got out of any performance diesel (including stints in an Alpina XD3 and D4) grinning like I have from a petrol six-cylinder/V8/V12.
The M5, especially tuned, is just in another league in terms of its accelerative potential and has a sense of occasion the diesel will never offer. Sometimes i wish for the economy of the diesel (having brimmed the tank three times in the last week) but then if I really wanted that I’d swap. The M5 has something which keeps me in it and I’m unlikely to swap it for a number more years and miles. I find this F90 highly appealing and will probably get one in the future when I’ve extracted more value from my F10 (or killed it).
Limpet said:
Yes, the software is everything. I've had this 'box in a 320d and now in an M140i, and it has been great in both, but set up very differently. In the 320d it was just smooth. In the M140i, in Sport mode, they've programmed a slight "thump" into full throttle upshifts, presumably to replicate a DCT. Whatever you do with it though, it doesn't feel anything like a TC box once rolling, as the converter is pretty much always locked up. But you do get that lovely creamy smooth take up of drive, and predictable, consistent low speed creep that only comes from a "slushbox".
I'm sure a DCT can shave some milliseconds off a shift, but the ZF8 is plenty quick enough, and has all the upsides of a TC box when you're stuck in traffic or bimbling around town. It's also pretty efficient if my fuel returns are any guide.
BMW expanding the use of this transmission into the M-cars doesn't concern me at all. It's brilliant.
I had an auto M140 and now have an F80 DCT M3.I'm sure a DCT can shave some milliseconds off a shift, but the ZF8 is plenty quick enough, and has all the upsides of a TC box when you're stuck in traffic or bimbling around town. It's also pretty efficient if my fuel returns are any guide.
BMW expanding the use of this transmission into the M-cars doesn't concern me at all. It's brilliant.
There's no discernible loss in change smoothness in the DCT and slow speed manoeuvring is no more difficult.
I imagine the cost/benefit in producing a dual clutch transmission for use in a comparative handful of vehicles is the problem once you can make the ZF box 'good enough' for the sporty application.
I liked/had no issue with both, although the ability of the DCT box to make fast, smooth changes at low speeds still feels like witchcraft considering the directness in the feel between right-foot and transmission.
theboss said:
TobyTR said:
I like your style and way of thinking, hat-tip.
I totally understand the argument of 335d/530d/640d real-world performance - ie. is an M5 owner really going to use more than 50% of the car's performance potential on UK roads etc. However I'll still get one.
Diesels are just mundane, boring motors. Dreadful sound, peculiar torque and power delivery, out of puff by 4000rpm... I've never got out of any performance diesel (including stints in an Alpina XD3 and D4) grinning like I have from a petrol six-cylinder/V8/V12.
My brother has an F31 335xd which is DMS mapped (390bhp) with Birds suspension, debadged with beige interior and it’s an absolute wolf in sheeps clothing. It would certainly worry my 750bhp M5 off the line because of its tractive advantage, would romp along an autobahn at 160mph all day albeit taking longer to get there, and delivers >40mpg on fast runs I only get 20mpg on. I’ve had an e70 40d myself. I think these drivetrains are brilliant and have nothing against them.I totally understand the argument of 335d/530d/640d real-world performance - ie. is an M5 owner really going to use more than 50% of the car's performance potential on UK roads etc. However I'll still get one.
Diesels are just mundane, boring motors. Dreadful sound, peculiar torque and power delivery, out of puff by 4000rpm... I've never got out of any performance diesel (including stints in an Alpina XD3 and D4) grinning like I have from a petrol six-cylinder/V8/V12.
The M5, especially tuned, is just in another league in terms of its accelerative potential and has a sense of occasion the diesel will never offer. Sometimes i wish for the economy of the diesel (having brimmed the tank three times in the last week) but then if I really wanted that I’d swap. The M5 has something which keeps me in it and I’m unlikely to swap it for a number more years and miles. I find this F90 highly appealing and will probably get one in the future when I’ve extracted more value from my F10 (or killed it).
...But a 450bhp M3 CP was noticeably quicker. My QV is noticeably quicker still. A 600bhp M5 will be jet quicker still....I find it hard to believe a 750bhp M5 would be worried by a DMS 335xd, except for perhaps the first couple of yards, but now that the M5 is 4WD, it's advantage would be comical.
janesmith1950 said:
Limpet said:
Yes, the software is everything. I've had this 'box in a 320d and now in an M140i, and it has been great in both, but set up very differently. In the 320d it was just smooth. In the M140i, in Sport mode, they've programmed a slight "thump" into full throttle upshifts, presumably to replicate a DCT. Whatever you do with it though, it doesn't feel anything like a TC box once rolling, as the converter is pretty much always locked up. But you do get that lovely creamy smooth take up of drive, and predictable, consistent low speed creep that only comes from a "slushbox".
I'm sure a DCT can shave some milliseconds off a shift, but the ZF8 is plenty quick enough, and has all the upsides of a TC box when you're stuck in traffic or bimbling around town. It's also pretty efficient if my fuel returns are any guide.
BMW expanding the use of this transmission into the M-cars doesn't concern me at all. It's brilliant.
I had an auto M140 and now have an F80 DCT M3.I'm sure a DCT can shave some milliseconds off a shift, but the ZF8 is plenty quick enough, and has all the upsides of a TC box when you're stuck in traffic or bimbling around town. It's also pretty efficient if my fuel returns are any guide.
BMW expanding the use of this transmission into the M-cars doesn't concern me at all. It's brilliant.
There's no discernible loss in change smoothness in the DCT and slow speed manoeuvring is no more difficult.
I imagine the cost/benefit in producing a dual clutch transmission for use in a comparative handful of vehicles is the problem once you can make the ZF box 'good enough' for the sporty application.
I liked/had no issue with both, although the ability of the DCT box to make fast, smooth changes at low speeds still feels like witchcraft considering the directness in the feel between right-foot and transmission.
The ZF in the new M5 (and no doubt next gen M3), will I have no doubt match the best tune/Implementation of the ZF box and won't adversely affect the cars, IMO, and will bring added benefits.
SidewaysSi said:
Is the M5 really hugely different? Long gone are the days when M cars were proper driving machines. They are just a fast, fat 5 Series.
We've not driven the latest M5, but the last one (and M6) was a proper M car. It wasn't a Caterham, but to say it is 'just a fast, fat 5 series' is to say a GT3 RS is just a fast chavvier 911.Ares said:
I had a 640d with a AC Schnitzer 380bhp engine tune and suspension. It was a wolf in sheeps clothing. Great car.
...But a 450bhp M3 CP was noticeably quicker. My QV is noticeably quicker still. A 600bhp M5 will be jet quicker still....I find it hard to believe a 750bhp M5 would be worried by a DMS 335xd, except for perhaps the first couple of yards, but now that the M5 is 4WD, it's advantage would be comical.
In anything other than perfect bone dry conditions with hot tyres and road surface the 750bhp M5 is effectively only a ~400bhp car until it’s gripping properly... which could be at 80mph... once it hooks up though, it’s monstrous. This also means it sustains a very strangely linear rate of acceleration because it’s only getting full power down once already rolling....But a 450bhp M3 CP was noticeably quicker. My QV is noticeably quicker still. A 600bhp M5 will be jet quicker still....I find it hard to believe a 750bhp M5 would be worried by a DMS 335xd, except for perhaps the first couple of yards, but now that the M5 is 4WD, it's advantage would be comical.
Totally agree with your point above that anyone who thinks the derv and M are comparable hasn’t really experienced the latter. The QV is a fine thing indeed!
Can't say I agree regards smoothness, however that's the beauty of personal opinions.
What we probably agree on is that you really can enjoy these kind of cars.
One downside of heavy, powerful cars is the big tyres and wear. Just spent £970 on new tyres after 9 months/14k miles.... The grins are worth it.
What we probably agree on is that you really can enjoy these kind of cars.
One downside of heavy, powerful cars is the big tyres and wear. Just spent £970 on new tyres after 9 months/14k miles.... The grins are worth it.
culpz said:
All of BMW's future M cars will ditch the DCT's for traditional automatic's. They announced it a while back now. It just shows you how far the automatic gearbox has come, Almost as fast shifting as a dual-clutch, but with the smoothness of a torque-converter. I've not driven the ZF8 but i've heard it's a cracker!
I'm not sure whether this was the case for the M5 though... but I guess now they have used it in the M5 to great effect they will roll it out across the board... but maybe we can assume the next M3/M4 will be xDrive as well as the ZF8 was used to adapt to the 4WD natively whereas the MDCT would have required a full reworking to work in conjunction with this 4WD systemMy dad currently owns a 530d with the ZF 8-speed and the box really is as good as you're led to believe.
The 30d lump really is all you need for day-to-day use IMO, plenty of low down grunt with respectable fuel economy.
RE M cars, the M5/M6 are basically GT cars nowadays, and simply comes down to demand and supply - consumer wants have changed and BMW have responded accordingly.
The 30d lump really is all you need for day-to-day use IMO, plenty of low down grunt with respectable fuel economy.
RE M cars, the M5/M6 are basically GT cars nowadays, and simply comes down to demand and supply - consumer wants have changed and BMW have responded accordingly.
Shiv_P said:
I'm not sure whether this was the case for the M5 though... but I guess now they have used it in the M5 to great effect they will roll it out across the board... but maybe we can assume the next M3/M4 will be xDrive as well as the ZF8 was used to adapt to the 4WD natively whereas the MDCT would have required a full reworking to work in conjunction with this 4WD system
We don't want a shrunken M5, and we certainly don't want an under-steering Audi in a different set of clothes - it's all about the drama with the smaller M cars IMO, something only a RWD platform can really offer.F10530D said:
RE M cars, the M5/M6 are basically GT cars nowadays, and simply comes down to demand and supply - consumer wants have changed and BMW have responded accordingly.
They've never really been anything other than that, but it does depend on your definition of a GT. Jump in an M5 Ring Taxi will push that GT definition.jamoor said:
SidewaysSi said:
Is the M5 really hugely different? Long gone are the days when M cars were proper driving machines. They are just a fast, fat 5 Series.
Controversial but I'm tempted to agreeTobyTR said:
jamoor said:
SidewaysSi said:
Is the M5 really hugely different? Long gone are the days when M cars were proper driving machines. They are just a fast, fat 5 Series.
Controversial but I'm tempted to agreeTobyTR said:
M2 and M3 are most certainly proper driving machines. And if the majority of F10/F90 M5 owners are saying they're proper M cars too then that's also good enough for me
The M5 has as much in common with the original M5 as the current Golf GTi has with its forebears, or current 911 has with the original. In other words, it is not the only model to move away from the original, and I'm not aware of any lightweight high-powered saloon currently on the market. The market appears to have little appetite for such a car.However, there is a whole plethora of high-powered luxury vehicles with Jekyll and Hyde personalities; comfy cruiser one minute, face-rearranging maniac the next. The M5 is amongst the best of the lot.
For anybody who keeps crying about the M5 no longer being a proper driving machine: E60 and F10 M5s can now be bought for relatively little money. Why not buy one as a project car and show us what a true M5 should look like?
Andy M said:
TobyTR said:
M2 and M3 are most certainly proper driving machines. And if the majority of F10/F90 M5 owners are saying they're proper M cars too then that's also good enough for me
The M5 has as much in common with the original M5 as the current Golf GTi has with its forebears, or current 911 has with the original. In other words, it is not the only model to move away from the original, and I'm not aware of any lightweight high-powered saloon currently on the market. The market appears to have little appetite for such a car.However, there is a whole plethora of high-powered luxury vehicles with Jekyll and Hyde personalities; comfy cruiser one minute, face-rearranging maniac the next. The M5 is amongst the best of the lot.
For anybody who keeps crying about the M5 no longer being a proper driving machine: E60 and F10 M5s can now be bought for relatively little money. Why not buy one as a project car and show us what a true M5 should look like?
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