RE: Jag kills six-cylinder saloons
Discussion
Yoof said:
"Jag kills six-cylinder saloons" ...until they launch the straight six Ingenium.
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/jlr-la...
There's hope for cylinder counts >4 yet
You do realise that article is 2 years old? Have they launched the i6 engine?https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/jlr-la...
There's hope for cylinder counts >4 yet
aston addict said:
Or why can't manufacturers make smooth, nice sounding 4 cylinder engines?
There have been great ones over the years (remember the first M3, many Alfas etc).
We have a Golf Gti - love the car, but the worst thing about it is the engine. Sounds dull and lacks refinement. Suspect the R is even worse.
I may be the minority here but i've got the 2.0 TSI in my Scirocco and i quite like the noise. With that being said, it is the most powerful and biggest engine i've had to date, so maybe it just sounds alot better to what i've been used to from my previous cars, which is a fair comment to make There have been great ones over the years (remember the first M3, many Alfas etc).
We have a Golf Gti - love the car, but the worst thing about it is the engine. Sounds dull and lacks refinement. Suspect the R is even worse.
finlo said:
Isn't this more likely because of the phase out of Ford supplied engine's?
That was happening in 2020. https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-ford-motor-jagua...The six-cylinder petrols still continue in Land Rovers, I'd guess. Also the XF still has the six-cylinder diesel (another Ford engine, from Dagenham), unless that hasn't been reported
These small Jaguars have nothing in common with the traditional Jags of old bar their name. I guess that has allowed the company to survive and continue to employ people, but the cars are totally different and aimed at a different customer. They're a modern interpretation of the Cortina or Mondeo really, and the engines reflect that.
NickofName said:
But you gain efficiency in reduced rotational mass. It obviously varies with bore and stroke (because it depends largely on piston size) but after roughly 500cc cylinder capacity you'll start to see more benefit from adding a cylinder than by increasing the size of the existing cylinders, assuming you've got the space and flexibility of layout to do so.
Not sure this would totally counter the additional frictional losses (probably not in fact) but it would certainly help.
Also, stop runing my Friday-afternoon fantasy of it now being viable for someone to make an MX-5-alike with a tiny capacity V6.
But your engine costs 50% more because there are six of everything instead of four, and it takes longer to build. I end up speaking to a fair few powertrain engineers, and I often ask the same thing. For instance, instead of a 6L V12 in a Ferrari, how about a naturally aspirated 3L V12 that revs to 12k, with a hybrid system doing torque-fill. Would sound amazing too. Not sure this would totally counter the additional frictional losses (probably not in fact) but it would certainly help.
Also, stop runing my Friday-afternoon fantasy of it now being viable for someone to make an MX-5-alike with a tiny capacity V6.
The answer is it would all cost more than just sticking a turbo on. In addition, the development that's going on are things like Mazda's spark-compression ignition, Nissan's variable compression ratio engine, or Delphi's dynamic skip fire cylinder deactivation.
I get the logic, even keeping the price the same, it's still the range-topper and very few will be conscious of the change.
The design details are awful though - graphite exterior trim, piss yellow stitching (no other choice) and naff '300 Sport' badging. 'S' was a much nicer moniker.
Also, when's the XE/ XF facelift? The basic designs are very good, but they need some drama added, particularly at the back.
The design details are awful though - graphite exterior trim, piss yellow stitching (no other choice) and naff '300 Sport' badging. 'S' was a much nicer moniker.
Also, when's the XE/ XF facelift? The basic designs are very good, but they need some drama added, particularly at the back.
What a disaster! First the V6 engine replaced the wonderful 5.0 V8 in the XFS a few years ago, and now there is only a 300HP 4 pot, apart from the faintly ridiculous 600HP V8 coming later this year. I am the absolutely delighted owner of a 2010 XF-S V8, being lucky enough to buy it shortly before it was dropped and replaced by the far duller sounding 380HP V6. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, like the sound of a big V8 to get the adrenaline surging!!! And to hell with the fuel bills, you only live once and I take the view that if you can afford 50K plus for an executive sports saloon why on earth would you worry about fuel consumption?? The fuel costs actually pale into insignificance compared to the depreciation costs for a private owner, which is why I have kept the XF-S V8 for so long. So, now I will need to preserve my beloved XF-S V8 for as long as possible, and alongside my sublime early XK8 convertible, and my fabulous Ferrari F355F1 Spider - all you see, with stonking V8's under their bonnets......and as for the diesel fiasco, well my conscience is clear because I have never bought a diesel car in my life, not even when I ran company cars for over 10 years, which back then included an entertaining Alfa Romeo 156 twin spark, and a splendid Alfa 166 3.0V6.....ok, not actually V8's, but engines full of character all the same.....PS - has anyone ever heard an impressive sounding electric car of any description/price/performance etc etc etc.....LONG LIVE THE MIGHTY V8's!!!!
Charlie Croker mk2 said:
J4CKO said:
4 cylinder petrol is rattly, so buys diesels instead
Diesels, definitely not rattly in any way shape or form.....
Jag and Land Rover 3.0 v6 diesel engine is very smooth and in most application is silent. Now compare this with a 4 cyl petrol ( read low torque unless you rev it). You need to book yourself a test drive LOLDiesels, definitely not rattly in any way shape or form.....
Edited by Charlie Croker mk2 on Friday 20th April 16:19
J4CKO said:
Charlie Croker mk2 said:
J4CKO said:
4 cylinder petrol is rattly, so buys diesels instead
Diesels, definitely not rattly in any way shape or form.....
Jag and Land Rover 3.0 v6 diesel engine is very smooth and in most application is silent. Now compare this with a 4 cyl petrol ( read low torque unless you rev it). You need to book yourself a test drive LOLDiesels, definitely not rattly in any way shape or form.....
Edited by Charlie Croker mk2 on Friday 20th April 16:19
Smooth and silent? Ha, smooth in what sense, that it short-shifts at 5k RPM to ensure the awful rattle isn’t heard in the cabin? From the outside it’s an awful noise too. They belong in vans, HGVs and commercial 4x4s.
southerndriver said:
I'd like to see car makers introduce smaller capacity six-cylinder engines so drivers can enjoy the refinement without huge fuel bills. After all, Formula One engines are 1.6 litre V6 format so why can't we have something similar (but suitably modified for longer life than an F1 season) in road cars ?
Mercedes have a load in development. Straight six with 2.1, 2.4 and 2.9 litre capacity.
DJM7691 said:
Typical Jag to be arrogant enough to not drop the price.
Losing 80bhp, half a second to 60 and still £46k. Makes a £42k (before discount, read £34k) 6 cylinder, 331PS 340i M Sport look veyr good value.
How many people actually give a sLosing 80bhp, half a second to 60 and still £46k. Makes a £42k (before discount, read £34k) 6 cylinder, 331PS 340i M Sport look veyr good value.
t about the list price of a car and pay for it that way though?The only thing that matters is the monthly rate.
This makes for sad reading. I was seriously thinking about buying an XE S when they first came out. The two best things about that car were the handling/ride balance and the engine feel/exhaust note. The styling was a bit meh, the rear space poor, as was the boot and the interior was nowhere near as special as the previous XF or Jags of old. Though it I don't like saying it, without the V6 engine the XE is actually a pretty pointless car in my opinion - there isn't even an estate or coupe version to add some practicality or panache!
The reasons I didn't buy the car were:
1) lack of a manual gearbox - I like manuals and yes I have driven modern autos. A small sports saloon should at least have a manual option!
2) lack of a CD player - since rectified provided you pay a huge premium for a bigger Nav screen that I am not bothered about.
3) a rather Max Power interior colour choice - I wanted leather and walnut or similar. I would have been happy with the V6 engine in a lower trim spec TBH but unlike in other markets, this was not an option.
4) the price - Jaguar wanted £45k + options - in the UK the car was frankly over-priced and a huge premium over 4 cyclinder models. Lots of useless options I didn't want were standard (power boot lid) and some useful stuff (power mirrors) were rather extortionate extras.
So I didn't buy one, even though I really would have liked to.
So now, living in Britain, unless you want a 2 seater, an XJ or an F-pace, you have to have 4 pot turbo. The thing is, I can get a 4 pot Mazda, Ford, Kia (I could get a V6 one of those) for a shed load less money than any Jag. I really do think Jaguar have a very talented group of engineers but their efforts are thrown down the pan by a frankly crap sales and marketing department, at least in the UK!
The reasons I didn't buy the car were:
1) lack of a manual gearbox - I like manuals and yes I have driven modern autos. A small sports saloon should at least have a manual option!
2) lack of a CD player - since rectified provided you pay a huge premium for a bigger Nav screen that I am not bothered about.
3) a rather Max Power interior colour choice - I wanted leather and walnut or similar. I would have been happy with the V6 engine in a lower trim spec TBH but unlike in other markets, this was not an option.
4) the price - Jaguar wanted £45k + options - in the UK the car was frankly over-priced and a huge premium over 4 cyclinder models. Lots of useless options I didn't want were standard (power boot lid) and some useful stuff (power mirrors) were rather extortionate extras.
So I didn't buy one, even though I really would have liked to.
So now, living in Britain, unless you want a 2 seater, an XJ or an F-pace, you have to have 4 pot turbo. The thing is, I can get a 4 pot Mazda, Ford, Kia (I could get a V6 one of those) for a shed load less money than any Jag. I really do think Jaguar have a very talented group of engineers but their efforts are thrown down the pan by a frankly crap sales and marketing department, at least in the UK!
In fact, assuming I wanted to buy a British built car, I may as well save money and buy a similarly sized, more practical (better boot) Honda Civic and, if I want sporty, buy the Type R version which would be more 'sporty' than the 300 BHP 4 pot XE. The appeal of the XE S was not the BHP or mpg, but the sound track and smoothness of the engine.
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