RE: Jag kills six-cylinder saloons
Discussion
The world is moving away from larger capacity engines. Everyone is downsizing towards 4 cylinders with forced induction. Effecient, good for emissions, space effecient (will there be an underbonnet hybrid syetem in the near future, for example??) And with forced induction, powerful. And with balancer shafts, hydraulic engine mounts, fly by wire throttle etc a smooth ride. Its what sells, and JLR are in the business of selling cars
Jaguar started when they found their XJR was more powerful then their V12 with half the cylinders. I dont think its as important as the advances with safety, refinement, tdchnology, lightweighting etc
Jaguar started when they found their XJR was more powerful then their V12 with half the cylinders. I dont think its as important as the advances with safety, refinement, tdchnology, lightweighting etc
If the V6 variants hadn't been so sodding expensive, perhaps they'd have sold more than a handful.
Having seen the videos on YouTube showing the complexity of the Ingenium petrol, I don't believe for a minute that the old school V6 cost that much more to produce than the four cylinder.
So now Land Rover have dropped the Defender and only make Chelsea tractors, and Jaguar have dropped the interesting engines from much of their range. I hope they can remedy the situation before their credibility goes down the pan.
Having seen the videos on YouTube showing the complexity of the Ingenium petrol, I don't believe for a minute that the old school V6 cost that much more to produce than the four cylinder.
So now Land Rover have dropped the Defender and only make Chelsea tractors, and Jaguar have dropped the interesting engines from much of their range. I hope they can remedy the situation before their credibility goes down the pan.
williamp said:
The world is moving away from larger capacity engines. Everyone is downsizing towards 4 cylinders with forced induction. Effecient, good for emissions, space effecient (will there be an underbonnet hybrid syetem in the near future, for example??) And with forced induction, powerful. And with balancer shafts, hydraulic engine mounts, fly by wire throttle etc a smooth ride. Its what sells, and JLR are in the business of selling cars
Jaguar started when they found their XJR was more powerful then their V12 with half the cylinders. I dont think its as important as the advances with safety, refinement, tdchnology, lightweighting etc
The V12 was already a 20+ year old design when the 6 cylinder XJR was launched - interestingly the next model XJR gained 2 cylinders! Imagine what a modern Jaguar V12 would be like if they had had the resources to contiune with V12 development as BMW and Mercedes have done - the motor in the latest 7 series is quite something by all accounts. Jaguar started when they found their XJR was more powerful then their V12 with half the cylinders. I dont think its as important as the advances with safety, refinement, tdchnology, lightweighting etc
The thing is, as yet, other than economy and emissions, the 300 bhp 4 pot is not actually 'as good' an engine as the engine it has 'replaced' and that is a slightly 'compromised' six compared with some. 80 horsepower less and slower acceleration for those who are bothered by this. More importantly, it doesn't have the intrinsic character of the V6. In these days of congested (slow moving) roads, whether a car has 300 or 400 bhp is irrelevant (to me). What matters is the driving experience and the sound/feel of the powertrain is intrinsic to this. There are characterful 4 cylinders out their, but I am yet to be convinced that the 4 cylinder Jag unit is one of them. Effective, yes, characterful?
I have also driven smaller 6 cylinder engines that are not fast, but they make the drive interesting due to the cylinder count and all that entails - smoothness, flexibility noise etc.
Edited by Alex P on Saturday 21st April 00:04
finlo said:
Isn't this more likely because of the phase out of Ford supplied engine's?
Yes. The jag v6 is actually a make do engine design as it uses the same size engine block of the v8 but with 2 cylinders deleted. Jaguar have given notice to Ford supplying diesel and petrol engines with production ceasing 2019-20RobXjcoupe said:
finlo said:
Isn't this more likely because of the phase out of Ford supplied engine's?
Yes. The jag v6 is actually a make do engine design as it uses the same size engine block of the v8 but with 2 cylinders deleted. Jaguar have given notice to Ford supplying diesel and petrol engines with production ceasing 2019-20[quote=gweaver]If the V6 variants hadn't been so sodding expensive, perhaps they'd have sold more than a handful.
Exactly! At the time, the V6 would have been a definite stretch for me. The petrol ecoboost 240 with the spec I wanted would have been a good £10k less and more affordable on a PCP. Did I but one instead? No. Would I have bought one had it been offered with a less powerful V6 (non supercharged or Ford Duratec with similar power to the ecoboost) yes, even though the fuel consumption etc would have been higher.
So I have kept my 5 cylinder Focus ST (characterful engine and plenty of power for me) and more recently bought a used petrol Mazda 6 as a family car (more space in the back and much bigger and better boot access than the XE).
On a side note, my parents have a Duratec 3.0 V6 XF and the exhaust note is lovely and it engine really does suit the car. That car cost just over £30k new. Yes I know it is out of date but that engine in an XE at a similar price to the ecoboost XE would have seen me sign on the dotted line.
interestingly, since all the Diesel 'issues' I am now seeing many more Audi S4s and BMW 140i/340is/M2s about. There is definitely a market for a 6 cylinder petrol car, but Jaguar priced theirs too high against the BMW equivalent and Audi seem much more competitive on the all important PCP/Contract Hire routes. You really do want to have the Jag when it costs thousands more than a BMW 340i or several hundred pounds a month more than an S4 on a PCP.
Exactly! At the time, the V6 would have been a definite stretch for me. The petrol ecoboost 240 with the spec I wanted would have been a good £10k less and more affordable on a PCP. Did I but one instead? No. Would I have bought one had it been offered with a less powerful V6 (non supercharged or Ford Duratec with similar power to the ecoboost) yes, even though the fuel consumption etc would have been higher.
So I have kept my 5 cylinder Focus ST (characterful engine and plenty of power for me) and more recently bought a used petrol Mazda 6 as a family car (more space in the back and much bigger and better boot access than the XE).
On a side note, my parents have a Duratec 3.0 V6 XF and the exhaust note is lovely and it engine really does suit the car. That car cost just over £30k new. Yes I know it is out of date but that engine in an XE at a similar price to the ecoboost XE would have seen me sign on the dotted line.
interestingly, since all the Diesel 'issues' I am now seeing many more Audi S4s and BMW 140i/340is/M2s about. There is definitely a market for a 6 cylinder petrol car, but Jaguar priced theirs too high against the BMW equivalent and Audi seem much more competitive on the all important PCP/Contract Hire routes. You really do want to have the Jag when it costs thousands more than a BMW 340i or several hundred pounds a month more than an S4 on a PCP.
culpz said:
I may be the minority here but i've got the 2.0 TSI in my Scirocco and i quite like the noise. With that being said, it is the most powerful and biggest engine i've had to date, so maybe it just sounds alot better to what i've been used to from my previous cars, which is a fair comment to make 
I like the noise my 2 Litre Turbo engine makes in my Mini Cooper S as well, I'm guessing the noise is piped in but nonetheless its a decent enough sound. I've had a few regarded bigger engines in the past but I still rate the lowly 4 pot. The Mini is much better on fuel than any of the petrol engines I've had in the past too.
I don't get Jaguar/JLR.
Two brands. One SUV, the other sports cars/saloon. LR/Jag
The LR SUV brand goes from strength to strength.
The sports brand is lost. They CBA to have a potent saloon to compete with the Germans, instead having a warm saloon to compete with the German's 2nd tier sports car. Now they drop that car and have a range topper than can't even compete with the 2nd tier, and doesn't even match the German's top diesel offering.
Meanwhile, the Jag SUV gets a Supercharged V8.
Stop competing with the competition, just compete with your sister brand.
The previous 3 times I've change car, I've looked at Jag, they were always left wanting. Last time around they had nothing to compete....and now they've taken a further backward step?
RIP Jag.
Two brands. One SUV, the other sports cars/saloon. LR/Jag
The LR SUV brand goes from strength to strength.
The sports brand is lost. They CBA to have a potent saloon to compete with the Germans, instead having a warm saloon to compete with the German's 2nd tier sports car. Now they drop that car and have a range topper than can't even compete with the 2nd tier, and doesn't even match the German's top diesel offering.
Meanwhile, the Jag SUV gets a Supercharged V8.
Stop competing with the competition, just compete with your sister brand.
The previous 3 times I've change car, I've looked at Jag, they were always left wanting. Last time around they had nothing to compete....and now they've taken a further backward step?
RIP Jag.
Alex P said:
RobXjcoupe said:
finlo said:
Isn't this more likely because of the phase out of Ford supplied engine's?
Yes. The jag v6 is actually a make do engine design as it uses the same size engine block of the v8 but with 2 cylinders deleted. Jaguar have given notice to Ford supplying diesel and petrol engines with production ceasing 2019-20Personally I think Jaguar are making a mistake to give notice on those v8/v6 engines. As Ford supply, the engines are built to exacting standards to ensure customer satisfaction and ensure continued custom but like most things it costs money more so as they are British built. Maybe government policies will change again or a manufacturer will crack the emissions targets to keep large cc petrol engines in future modern vehicles, fingers crossed eh
ash73 said:
Now it looks like a Mondeo it doesn't really matter what engine's in it.
Oh dear. How sad. Never mind .... Ford sold Jaguar several years ago. XE = aluminium shell, rear drive, Mondeo = steel body shell, front-wheel-drive. No comparison is possible.Edited by AAGR on Sunday 22 April 09:03
Alex P said:
In these days of congested (slow moving) roads, whether a car has 300 or 400 bhp is irrelevant (to me). What matters is the driving experience and the sound/feel of the powertrain is intrinsic to this. There are characterful 4 cylinders out their, but I am yet to be convinced that the 4 cylinder Jag unit is one of them. Effective, yes, characterful?
I have also driven smaller 6 cylinder engines that are not fast, but they make the drive interesting due to the cylinder count and all that entails - smoothness, flexibility noise etc.
+1 on this.I have also driven smaller 6 cylinder engines that are not fast, but they make the drive interesting due to the cylinder count and all that entails - smoothness, flexibility noise etc.
Edited by Alex P on Saturday 21st April 00:04
finlo said:
Isn't this more likely because of the phase out of Ford supplied engine's?
It’s precicely because of this. The V6 only ever existed because it was cheaper to take the existing V8 and using all the same key components and production line to deliver a mid level engine. It’s no different from all the 90 degree V6s that suddenly appeared a decade or so ago from V8 manufacturers that needed a quick fix to the the eco rules back then. And pretty much ever since, companies like Jag and Merc have been planning their replacements with I6 units using their I4 lines and components.
Now Jaguar have their own 4 pot production line the reverse is true, it is cheaper to make an I6 on that production line and to use all the 4 pot parts.
What manufacturers want to do going forward is for all their engines to utilise the same cylinders, valves and other components so I expect that the Jag I6 will be 500cc per cylinder etc.
The current V8 will go as the deal with Ford is ending and I doubt Jag will build another as it is just too expensive to build a small run of an engine that requires a separate production line and components. I was led to believe by another PHer that they will be buying in their V8 solution from elsewhere. Was it BMW?
DonkeyApple said:
Now Jaguar have their own 4 pot production line the reverse is true, it is cheaper to make an I6 on that production line and to use all the 4 pot parts.
Imagine the cost savings over having to produce, and stock parts for, the current V6 in the face of little (domestic) demand.Does anybody know when the inline 6 is supposed to debut?
Colin-t4n2y said:
What a disaster! First the V6 engine replaced the wonderful 5.0 V8 in the XFS a few years ago, and now there is only a 300HP 4 pot, apart from the faintly ridiculous 600HP V8 coming later this year. I am the absolutely delighted owner of a 2010 XF-S V8, being lucky enough to buy it shortly before it was dropped and replaced by the far duller sounding 380HP V6. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, like the sound of a big V8 to get the adrenaline surging!!! And to hell with the fuel bills, you only live once and I take the view that if you can afford 50K plus for an executive sports saloon why on earth would you worry about fuel consumption?? The fuel costs actually pale into insignificance compared to the depreciation costs for a private owner, which is why I have kept the XF-S V8 for so long. So, now I will need to preserve my beloved XF-S V8 for as long as possible, and alongside my sublime early XK8 convertible, and my fabulous Ferrari F355F1 Spider - all you see, with stonking V8's under their bonnets......and as for the diesel fiasco, well my conscience is clear because I have never bought a diesel car in my life, not even when I ran company cars for over 10 years, which back then included an entertaining Alfa Romeo 156 twin spark, and a splendid Alfa 166 3.0V6.....ok, not actually V8's, but engines full of character all the same.....PS - has anyone ever heard an impressive sounding electric car of any description/price/performance etc etc etc.....LONG LIVE THE MIGHTY V8's!!!!
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