Manual Vs Automatic??
Discussion
waremark said:
So if an auto is faster, smoother, more economical and offering a large measure of manual control, on what parameter(s) could you suggest that a manual is better?
Well they obviously offer more manual control; otherwise... cheaper, lighter, simpler and hence often (although certainly not always) more reliable,...I've never got any satisfaction from using Auto's/Twin clutch gearboxes from an enjoyment point of view, but I do appreciate them in heavy start/stop traffic.
I'm a dinosaur and I just really enjoy three pedals and a gearstick, although I find a proper manual a bit heavy going in stop/start traffic.
I'm a dinosaur and I just really enjoy three pedals and a gearstick, although I find a proper manual a bit heavy going in stop/start traffic.
waremark said:
DoubleD said:
waremark said:
I think you can say that a modern auto is simply better - faster, smoother than the best driver, more economical, offering a large measure of manual control if required. However, that is quite different from saying that everyone prefers driving even the best autos. I get great satisfaction from good gear changing, and in a household with a mix of manuals and autos I choose to use a manual most of the time - even for driving in town. Using paddles in an auto does not give any of that satisfaction.
Saying that you think a modern auto is better is your opinion. Facts are things like faster gear changes, because that can be measured.By the way, I consider 'manuals' with autoblip to be the worst of both worlds - takes away much of the opportunity to practice skill, without giving any of the other benefits of an auto.
Pros to autos:
Easier, so much easier
Smoother
Cons:
They tend to be more expensive to buy and repair although if you pick a good box and treat it well it should last well. I'm an Auto instructor, I do 40k a year and have never had any gearbox fail on me.
Generally economy isn't as good
Can be slower than their manual counterpart, although more modern boxes have closed that gap.
Avoid automatic-manuals, those are ones that are manual gearboxes with motors than shift the gears and clutch for you, f
king awful things, many manufacturers have actually gone back to Torque converters because they are smoother and more reliable. They are easy to spot because they won't have a 'P' for park and instead of a P,R,N,D selector they'll have some weird layout. Also they often are slow and jerky to shift.
Easier, so much easier
Smoother
Cons:
They tend to be more expensive to buy and repair although if you pick a good box and treat it well it should last well. I'm an Auto instructor, I do 40k a year and have never had any gearbox fail on me.
Generally economy isn't as good
Can be slower than their manual counterpart, although more modern boxes have closed that gap.
Avoid automatic-manuals, those are ones that are manual gearboxes with motors than shift the gears and clutch for you, f
king awful things, many manufacturers have actually gone back to Torque converters because they are smoother and more reliable. They are easy to spot because they won't have a 'P' for park and instead of a P,R,N,D selector they'll have some weird layout. Also they often are slow and jerky to shift.So used to driving a manual it’s almost second nature, especially when you’re in the 30k+ club. However, van’s auto and it just does it brilliantly, so now getting back in the car feels like going back in time. Next car will be auto.
Isn’t it something like 40% of new cars are auto?
ETA funnily enough I hated the CVT in the Prius, that’s a step too far..
Isn’t it something like 40% of new cars are auto?
ETA funnily enough I hated the CVT in the Prius, that’s a step too far..
It’s an interesting one that. Marketing departments have been instrumental in a lot of these recent auto purchases. They are easy money for car manufacturers, so they love them!
It’s also true, that most drivers would be better off with an auto anyway. Slipping the clutch and snatching a lever to and fro and the norm in the “it’s just transport” category of motorist!
Calling it a ‘Sports Auto’ is a big deal and allows people to feel like they haven’t given up, or got too old for a manual. Instead, BMW (or similar) brand their new choice ‘sporty’
I’ve only been driven by a few people who can genuinely use a manual box properly. I aspire to be like them and enjoy getting closer all the time. I was practicing heal and toe downchanges on my first day without L plates. I’m sure I’ll perfect it one day
Auto is faster?
Well they are quoted as faster 0-60 etc, but it’s not always the case in the real world.
They are faster at changing up the box, but spend a lot of time doing so, with eight or more gears to shuffle possibly.
More economical? Torque converters waste engine power.
This is countered with eco optimised modes and longer final drives. These mean the auto is tailor made for the current methods of testing. In the real world, it’s only true under very specific circumstances, like long motorway jaunts.
My opinion is this....
The auto (or DTC boxes) are good at going FLAT OUT with your hair on fire. Two hands on the wheel will always be better at 10/10ths. Perhaps on track days etc.
Perfect.
The auto is also great at wafting and pottering about slowly and in traffic. Relaxing and easy to pilot with almost zero effort required.
Go for the auto.
However, for road driving we (I hope PH types) hope to enjoy most, when there is even a little space and time, the manual is way more enjoyable for me.
Most of my road driving is in this window between 2 and 7 10ths, where engagement and manual control is more enjoyable and more important.
This is where the PDK/auto fall flat on its face for me.
Often wrong footed, slower to react than my left foot/hand etc. Often a bit clunky and guessing what I might want to do next. Eugh!
The manual just gives more options and more control. It is way smoother and never miss reads my intentions
It’s also true, that most drivers would be better off with an auto anyway. Slipping the clutch and snatching a lever to and fro and the norm in the “it’s just transport” category of motorist!
Calling it a ‘Sports Auto’ is a big deal and allows people to feel like they haven’t given up, or got too old for a manual. Instead, BMW (or similar) brand their new choice ‘sporty’
I’ve only been driven by a few people who can genuinely use a manual box properly. I aspire to be like them and enjoy getting closer all the time. I was practicing heal and toe downchanges on my first day without L plates. I’m sure I’ll perfect it one day
Auto is faster?
Well they are quoted as faster 0-60 etc, but it’s not always the case in the real world.
They are faster at changing up the box, but spend a lot of time doing so, with eight or more gears to shuffle possibly.
More economical? Torque converters waste engine power.
This is countered with eco optimised modes and longer final drives. These mean the auto is tailor made for the current methods of testing. In the real world, it’s only true under very specific circumstances, like long motorway jaunts.
My opinion is this....
The auto (or DTC boxes) are good at going FLAT OUT with your hair on fire. Two hands on the wheel will always be better at 10/10ths. Perhaps on track days etc.
Perfect.
The auto is also great at wafting and pottering about slowly and in traffic. Relaxing and easy to pilot with almost zero effort required.
Go for the auto.
However, for road driving we (I hope PH types) hope to enjoy most, when there is even a little space and time, the manual is way more enjoyable for me.
Most of my road driving is in this window between 2 and 7 10ths, where engagement and manual control is more enjoyable and more important.
This is where the PDK/auto fall flat on its face for me.
Often wrong footed, slower to react than my left foot/hand etc. Often a bit clunky and guessing what I might want to do next. Eugh!
The manual just gives more options and more control. It is way smoother and never miss reads my intentions
I dont know what to do next, new job with a more traffic heavy commute and I sometimes get foot trouble where I cant put weight on one of them, fine now but it just comes from nowhere, last a few days and is excruciating, think an auto may make life easier in that respect if it happens but not sure I want to get one again, had one in my Mercedes but been there, done that.
I currently drive an auto daily, which is okay..... Always had manuals (except one) before.
Managed to stall my wife's Nissan note the other day pulling up to some lights and just stomping on the brakes. Did not sound good
Never have problems swapping into my manual 1982 vw camper though.
I am still undecided about the auto. Sometimes great and other times I miss a manual. Cannot put my finger on why though...
Mike
Managed to stall my wife's Nissan note the other day pulling up to some lights and just stomping on the brakes. Did not sound good
Never have problems swapping into my manual 1982 vw camper though.
I am still undecided about the auto. Sometimes great and other times I miss a manual. Cannot put my finger on why though...
Mike
kambites said:
DoubleD said:
It does make me smile when folk say that 1 is better than the other and state it like its a fact. Which you prefer is opinion and nothing more.
Look at a market leading auto gearbox without subjectivity, and it is better, factually. Faster, quicker, more fuel efficient, less prone to fluff a gear change, less change of selecting the wrong gear...etc.
Then factor in opinion, and plenty of people simply prefer a manual gearbox despite (or because) of its technical flaws.
Both can be correct.
DoubleD said:
waremark said:
DoubleD said:
It does make me smile when folk say that 1 is better than the other and state it like its a fact. Which you prefer is opinion and nothing more.
I had an automatic Golf GTI I enjoyed it for the 1st month, then got really bored. I prefer a manual car, because they better suit what I enjoy.
OP get a few long tests of various gearboxes then choose the 1 that you prefer, because there is no 1 box that suits everyone.
I think you can say that a modern auto is simply better - faster, smoother than the best driver, more economical, offering a large measure of manual control if required. However, that is quite different from saying that everyone prefers driving even the best autos. I get great satisfaction from good gear changing, and in a household with a mix of manuals and autos I choose to use a manual most of the time - even for driving in town. Using paddles in an auto does not give any of that satisfaction.I had an automatic Golf GTI I enjoyed it for the 1st month, then got really bored. I prefer a manual car, because they better suit what I enjoy.
OP get a few long tests of various gearboxes then choose the 1 that you prefer, because there is no 1 box that suits everyone.
Autos and dual clutch boxes have become more and more similar to use, to the point where most drivers would not know which of the two they were using. In my experience autos have more natural creep for manoeuvering, and dual clutches sometimes change even faster, but I wouldn't be bothered which a car came with. For sports car enthusiasts, it is interesting that Aston are using an AMG engine in the new Vantage; the Merc equivalent, the AMG GT, uses a dual clutch, but Aston have gone for an 8 speed auto. I don't think any of the reviews of either car have criticized the transmission - except in so far as we are having to wait for a manual version of the Aston.
You are confusing opinion/preference with technically better.
Ares said:
DoubleD said:
waremark said:
DoubleD said:
It does make me smile when folk say that 1 is better than the other and state it like its a fact. Which you prefer is opinion and nothing more.
I had an automatic Golf GTI I enjoyed it for the 1st month, then got really bored. I prefer a manual car, because they better suit what I enjoy.
OP get a few long tests of various gearboxes then choose the 1 that you prefer, because there is no 1 box that suits everyone.
I think you can say that a modern auto is simply better - faster, smoother than the best driver, more economical, offering a large measure of manual control if required. However, that is quite different from saying that everyone prefers driving even the best autos. I get great satisfaction from good gear changing, and in a household with a mix of manuals and autos I choose to use a manual most of the time - even for driving in town. Using paddles in an auto does not give any of that satisfaction.I had an automatic Golf GTI I enjoyed it for the 1st month, then got really bored. I prefer a manual car, because they better suit what I enjoy.
OP get a few long tests of various gearboxes then choose the 1 that you prefer, because there is no 1 box that suits everyone.
Autos and dual clutch boxes have become more and more similar to use, to the point where most drivers would not know which of the two they were using. In my experience autos have more natural creep for manoeuvering, and dual clutches sometimes change even faster, but I wouldn't be bothered which a car came with. For sports car enthusiasts, it is interesting that Aston are using an AMG engine in the new Vantage; the Merc equivalent, the AMG GT, uses a dual clutch, but Aston have gone for an 8 speed auto. I don't think any of the reviews of either car have criticized the transmission - except in so far as we are having to wait for a manual version of the Aston.
You are confusing opinion/preference with technically better.
DoubleD said:
They are also more expensive and more likely to go wrong
More expensive, sometimes.More likely to go wrong? Are they nowadays? I don't think I've heard of a gearbox problem on a modern car for years (aside from a synchromesh problem my neighbour had on her Audi A1).
Regardless, still doesn't make it not 'better'. The GT3 RS is better than a GT86. It's also got greater potential for going wrong.
I've always had manuals until last year when I bought an E39 530i with an auto box. It's fine for the most part, but can get a bit frustrating when it doesn't change gear when you think it should. It also makes the car guzzle petrol more than the manual equivalent would. The auto box in these are reasonably well known for lunching themselves at some point and mine has so far made it to 165,000 miles without doing so. I've made the decision that if/when that day comes I'll convert the car to manual instead.
On the subject of forgetting how to drive a manual, I've never had a problem switching from one to the other so I think muscle memory kicks in for that. My other half (who has never driven an auto) can't get her head around being able to jump into either without thinking about it.
On the subject of forgetting how to drive a manual, I've never had a problem switching from one to the other so I think muscle memory kicks in for that. My other half (who has never driven an auto) can't get her head around being able to jump into either without thinking about it.
Went auto in December and where traffic is concerned it is a pleasure to drive. Where in the U.K. is there not any traffic? The paddles let me mess about on occasion, the sports setting is neither here nor there. Do I miss a manual gear box? A little but then get stuck on the M6 or in town traffic and I don't any longer.
LarsG said:
Went auto in December and where traffic is concerned it is a pleasure to drive. Where in the U.K. is there not any traffic? The paddles let me mess about on occasion, the sports setting is neither here nor there. Do I miss a manual gear box? A little but then get stuck on the M6 or in town traffic and I don't any longer.
I know what you mean, I have also noticed beige sports coats and thinking they look dapper and got a taste for Werthers originals, damn that new Honda Jazz looks appealing....Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff