RE: Advanced driving: Putting Reg Local to the test

[MC Bodge]

Dr Jekyll said:

There is an argument that there is no trade off between smoothness and progress.

I would agree with that.

There will be exceptions in certain, specific conditions, of course.

Ps. Of course, I didn't believe my Dad when he told that smooth was better, when I was sawing at the wheel, getting out of shape and doing hard up shifts and down shifts at 18....

[julian64]

I enjoyed the OP right up till he recommended everyone should do this at the end. I feel its great people enjoy time with reg, and that your daughter enjoyed her time, but I would ultimately hate driver training in this format.

Why not stop at simply letting others know your enjoyment and describing your experiences. Why does everyone who does this sort of thing become an evangelist?

apologies if this wasn't your intent.

[akirk]

julian64 said:

I enjoyed the OP right up till he recommended everyone should do this at the end. I feel its great people enjoy time with reg, and that your daughter enjoyed her time, but I would ultimately hate driver training in this format.

Why not stop at simply letting others know your enjoyment and describing your experiences. Why does everyone who does this sort of thing become an evangelist?

apologies if this wasn't your intent.

Why would you hate it? Not criticising - just intrigued...
If we accept that every driver on the road has the ability to improve, regardless of how good they are, then it is simply a matter of deciding whether you wish to improve or not...
- if you don't want to improve / are happy where you are - then great, that is fine
- if you do wish to improve, then Reg Local is one of a handful of coaches who can help drivers do that, and do so in a fun / interesting way

when Advanced Driving as a concept is usually seen as one step worse than watching paint drying, it is nice to be able to share that there are options which are not only logical and helpful, but actually fun...

julian64 said:

Why not stop at simply letting others know your enjoyment and describing your experiences. Why does everyone who does this sort of thing become an evangelist?

apologies if this wasn't your intent.

Why is it that whenever someone has something they feel is a positive thing to share, there is always someone who is an 'anti-evangelist' - who instead of stopping and saying, not for me, they feel a need to try and put people off / be negative?

apologies if this wasn't your intent.

[MC Bodge]

julian64 said:

I enjoyed the OP right up till he recommended everyone should do this at the end. I feel its great people enjoy time with reg, and that your daughter enjoyed her time, but I would ultimately hate driver training in this format.

Why not stop at simply letting others know your enjoyment and describing your experiences. Why does everyone who does this sort of thing become an evangelist?

apologies if this wasn't your intent.

I have to say that I have always enjoyed courses like the one described.

Of course, there's nothing magical about them and the info is all out there in books and on the Www, but it is good to interact with a knowledgeable person who can give feedback.

Let us not forget that almost all drivers think that they are above average, with mostly no justification.

Edited by MC Bodge on Wednesday 9th May 19:30

[blearyeyedboy]

akirk said:

As the musician who plays syncopated jazz can switch to a classically trained elegant style, so the good driver has choice, those who don’t and simply deliver a discordant mess are at a much lower level than they probably think!

I can work with musical analogies! Though I'm less the virtuoso who can switch styles, more the 3-chord rock guitarist who can do the occasional slower song.

Dr Jekyll said:

There is an argument that there is no trade off between smoothness and progress.

Fair point. Thank you.

[Gemaeden]

MC Bodge said:

...Of course, there's nothing magical about (advanced driving courses) and the info is all out there...

Surely all the info isn't out there, otherwise driving wouldn't be a life long learning experience.

I, for instance, have learned lots that I haven't read or been told, through analysis of situations not being dealt with in an optimal way with regard to safety, smoothness and progress (in that order)

I'd find it remarkable if others didn't have a similar story to tell.

[dvenman]

Dr Jekyll said:

There is an argument that there is no trade off between smoothness and progress.

..snipped...

I think there is a grain of truth in it, though sometimes a less than smooth change in position might be worthwhile in terms of improving visibility.

I see someone else commented on the tradeoff and I can't add to that.

If a change in position to improve visibility is needed, then I would see that in my driving as a less than optimal forward observation and planning event.

[Edited for spooling mistook]

[Adamxck]

Dr Jekyll said:

TEKNOPUG said:

"One of his handiest tips: the second corner of a right-then-left S-bend is usually tighter."

I queried this earlier in the thread. It seems it just refers to left handers being generally tighter because you tend to be on the inside of the bend.

More specifically; because you know the second bend is (likely) to be tighter as you will be on the inside (as above), it's worth taking off a bit of extra speed before the first bend to account for the (likely) reduced view through the second, therefore avoiding the need to brake mid corner and unsettle the car.

[Mel Nichols]

Gemaeden said:

Some of us do, but maybe that's because we cover the South East, and we also teach people from scratch when requested, so they don't have to spend years driving less than optimally.

Now to possibly upset some people, because Reg is a popular figure on Pistonheads and I'm an infrequent poster

I find it strange that no-one has questioned what would have happened in the original article's photographer scenario if the photographer had just got back into their car. There would have been no observational pre-warning.

Would Reg have gotten the OP's daughter to slow down for a blind bend in case of a parked car, or would there have been panic braking. If the former is the case then there is no need to mention seeing the photographer, if the former is not the case why wasn't she being prepared for a blind bend?

Edited by Gemaeden on Friday 4th May 20:08

Just for clarity: Reg had fully prepared Georgia for a blind crest. She had slowed properly, lifting off as she went up the approaching incline and then braking, so that she was down to an appropriate speed and would have been able to pull up for any eventuality without a crash stop.

But when Reg saw the jeans-and-thin-shirted cameraman, he asked Georgia to brake a bit more because he was then pretty sure there would be a car blocking the road and we definitely would need to stop. It was a further piece of information he’d absorbed and acted upon, meaning there was no element of surprise when we did duly encounter the parked Corsa.

I cited it as a typical example of the level of observation and interpretation that an advanced driving instructor as good as Reg advocates and teaches. There were many other instances during our time with him.

Re the comments about the value of such a day’s learning: yes, it’s cheap at the price.

Re distance from the south-east, we drove up to Lancashire from London the night before and stayed at a local hotel where Reg met us at nine next morning. We were with him until nearly 6pm then drove back south. The Golf R made it all easy enough.

Re julian64’s comment: it’d be hard not to come away from a day with Reg and not be evangelical. Even for a very experienced driver with an open mind there’s much to gain, and certainly enjoy. And for a young driver, it’s life changing and possibly life preserving. That’s a message I think is worth trumpeting.

[MC Bodge]

Gemaeden said:

MC Bodge said:

...Of course, there's nothing magical about (advanced driving courses) and the info is all out there...

Surely all the info isn't out there, otherwise driving wouldn't be a life long learning experience.

I, for instance, have learned lots that I haven't read or been told, through analysis of situations not being dealt with in an optimal way with regard to safety, smoothness and progress (in that order)

I'd find it remarkable if others didn't have a similar story to tell.

The info is out there, but implementing it takes practice. Coaching can accelerate the process.

Much of "good driving" is about anticipating what may be around the next corner and understanding the behaviour of orders.

Maintaining set/balance is the most important aspect of car control -the methods used are secondary.

It isn't magic.

[vonhosen]

Gemaeden said:

Surely all the info isn't out there, otherwise driving wouldn't be a life long learning experience.

It's all out there, but it's tremendously interwoven & complex (which is why it's a never ending process). Finding a facilitator to help us negotiate the maze can speed up the process & shine a light on things we may not even be aware of yet, not only about the activity but also about ourselves & how who we are can or is impacting on the process.

[akirk]

MC Bodge said:

...Of course, there's nothing magical about (advanced driving courses) and the info is all out there...

There is a reason that professional musicians still have coaches
professionals in sport still have coaches
etc.

e.g. Andy Murray - the information on how to do a perfect serve is out there and not complicated - I have taught it to 3 - 5 year olds - yet Andy took time out a few years ago and with the help of his coach rebuilt his serve and went on to be world no 1...

if you have the skill to absorb all the information and put it into place perfectly then you are a far better driver than I will ever be - and I salute you - if you are human like the rest of us then a coach will help accelerate your progress...

[MC Bodge]

akirk said:

MC Bodge said:

...Of course, there's nothing magical about (advanced driving courses) and the info is all out there...

There is a reason that professional musicians still have coaches
professionals in sport still have coaches
etc.

e.g. Andy Murray - the information on how to do a perfect serve is out there and not complicated - I have taught it to 3 - 5 year olds - yet Andy took time out a few years ago and with the help of his coach rebuilt his serve and went on to be world no 1...

if you have the skill to absorb all the information and put it into place perfectly then you are a far better driver than I will ever be - and I salute you - if you are human like the rest of us then a coach will help accelerate your progress...

Er, read my last post.....

I endorse coaching and training.....

[akirk]

MC Bodge said:

akirk said:

MC Bodge said:

...Of course, there's nothing magical about (advanced driving courses) and the info is all out there...

There is a reason that professional musicians still have coaches
professionals in sport still have coaches
etc.

e.g. Andy Murray - the information on how to do a perfect serve is out there and not complicated - I have taught it to 3 - 5 year olds - yet Andy took time out a few years ago and with the help of his coach rebuilt his serve and went on to be world no 1...

if you have the skill to absorb all the information and put it into place perfectly then you are a far better driver than I will ever be - and I salute you - if you are human like the rest of us then a coach will help accelerate your progress...

Er, read my last post.....

I endorse coaching and training.....

that is good
apologies - your last post wasn't showing on my screen when I posted - must refresh first!

[S. Gonzales Esq.]

Just on the 'being an evangelist' thing - from a personal perspective, I've long-since realised that not everyone is interested in improving their driving, and of those that are, not all are prepared / able to put the time in to make it happen.

However, go back a few years and I was desperate for this kind of thing, but with no knowledge of how to go about it. Since then the experience and advice of many people (including Reg and five other contributors to this thread) has made that (hopefully ongoing) improvement possible.

Looking back, I'd have been delighted to have had these opportunities presented to me much earlier. If I'd attended something like the HPC Young Drivers' Day thirty years ago, who knows where I'd be now. Hopefully there's a difference between making information about this kind of thing available, and shoving it down the throats of people who don't want to know.

[popeyewhite]

julian64 said:

Why not stop at simply letting others know your enjoyment and describing your experiences. Why does everyone who does this sort of thing become an evangelist?

Zealotry in all forms is similar ( ). Personally I'm happy to admit I'm an average driver and have no intention whatsoever of taking measures to improve my skills. I know bends tighten, and unfamiliar people at the roadside might indicate an awkwardly parked car round the corner so I slow down. I'd call it commonsense. Perhaps the standard of driving instruction has slipped a bit in 35 years.

[Gemaeden]

[quote=vonhosen & MC Bodge]

Gemaeden said:

Surely all the info isn't out there, otherwise driving wouldn't be a life long learning experience.

It's all out there.....

How long has it all been out there? Since the 1920s, 1950s, 1990s?

I'm genuinely surprised that someone would think that there could never be any increase of knowledge about a subject.

Edited by Gemaeden on Thursday 10th May 14:46

[vonhosen]

Gemaeden said:

How long has it all been out there? Since the 1920s, 1950s, 1990s?

I'm genuinely surprised that someone would think that there could never be any increase of knowledge about a subject.

It's always been out there, just like the universe has.
As our understanding improves (just like it does about the universe) it opens new doors & poses new questions that need answering/addressing. It can also show that what we were mistaken about what we previously believed to be the case, so we have to go back & try again.

[Gemaeden]

vonhosen said:

Gemaeden said:

How long has it all been out there? Since the 1920s, 1950s, 1990s?

I'm genuinely surprised that someone would think that there could never be any increase of knowledge about a subject.

It's always been out there, just like the universe has.
As our understanding improves (just like it does about the universe) it opens new doors & poses new questions that need answering/addressing. It can also show that what we were mistaken about what we previously believed to be the case, so we have to go back & try again.

Sorry vonhosen to have lumped your quote and MC Bodge's together. I thought you were both referring to books and the www.

Assuming of course made an ass of me.

What I gather is that the information isn't all together anywhere, and readily accessible, which is a shame.

[MC Bodge]

Gemaeden said:

How long has it all been out there? Since the 1920s, 1950s, 1990s?

I'm genuinely surprised that someone would think that there could never be any increase of knowledge about a subject.

Edited by Gemaeden on Thursday 10th May 14:46

You are making unusual assumptions.

Where did I say that all knowledge was known by the 1920s or any other time? I'm hardly a Roadcraft fundamentalist -look in the Advanced Driving forum for some of those

Books are being written all of the time. I have read many, including a fair few about driving and riding.

The Internet is a source of information and *discussion* that was not available in days gone by.

A somebody who has been on various bike and car courses over the years, I am not saying that there is no value in them. I have enjoyed them and learned from some of them.

What I am saying is that all of the information is out there for those who want to know it. A coach may be a good source of feedback and pointers, with some really useful practical experience, but they won't necessarily reveal secret new information to you if you have absorbed a lot of knowledge already.

Constant practice and forming good habits is the important thing.