RE: Honda Integra Type R DC2: PH Buying Guide

[nebpor]

I miss my two DC2s terribly - closest thing I'll ever own to a GT3RS, as I'm not spending the money on a GT3RS!

Compared to my 3.4 996 or my even heavier 996 turbo I now drive, I miss the intoxicating gearbox/engine combo, perfect for UK roads - the best thing for me about the DC2 is the fun to be had without worrying about your licence

I might get another one .... standard UK car, no mods

[TameRacingDriver]

havoc said:

This is my headache with the direction most modern hot-hatches (and a lot of more expensive performance cars) have gone in.

They feel designed for track-work and for smoother (Germanic?) roads - put them on a typical Brit B-road, even before the pothole pandemic gathered pace, and they're genuinely uncomfortable for the driver, let alone any poor passengers. Yet you go for something more rounded (e.g. Golf GTi PP) and the rest of the car is softened-off too. Had talked the missus into an i30N to replace her succession of Golf GTis, based on evo's lauding of it as the second coming, then we test-drove one and both came away going "no chance".

(i30N, FK2/8, Fiesta ST, Renault's Cup suspensions...all are as bad or worse than my FD2, which at least has the excuse of being designed in Japan only FOR Japan...by comparison the DC2 and most Elise's feel like they've got much higher quality damping - not quite Alpina-esque, but far better thought-through)

I agree. Most cars are far too firm for our crappy roads. It's genuinely uncomfortable piloting some cars down our roads, the way they crash and bang over every bump. As you say, fine for a track or a smooth A-road, but once you get onto the back lanes, rubbish.

About the FK8, I understood that one of the biggest improvements between that and the FK2 was the fact the suspension actually rode alright in it's soft setting? However, I can imagine it doesn't come close to the DC2 in that regard. My DC2 was a 98-spec, which was a JDM model, and I always assumed the UKDM model would have had a better ride with its smaller wheels and UK tuned suspension. However it was still more than acceptable.

nebpor said:

the best thing for me about the DC2 is the fun to be had without worrying about your licence

I dunno about that, my licence regularly collected points I think it was probably because I wanted to be in VTEC all the time.

[911Spanker]

TameRacingDriver said:

I had a 328 E36 and it's nowhere near as good as a dc2 to drive apart from the rwd thing, but it's just boring in comparison.

I imagine a GR86 is really just a modern RWD teg so not that different in many respects.

I think you just prefer RWD, nothing wrong with that of course.

Apologies, was at FOS yesterday - cracking day!

Yep, I can't do FWD anymore as it is mastered in such a short time that it no longer interests me.

My E36 has about £5k of mods (yep, it's unfair on the old Honda) but Z3 rack, E30 arms, B12s, Eibach ARBs transform it from a feel point of view (as good of not better than my tweaked 996 and no disappointments after jumping into it from my S1 Elise). Fantastic ride and handling, great steering and of course power oversteer in demand.

I did spend another £2k at Birds on a Quaife diff and 3.7 ratio FD - the gear ratios are probably similar to a DC2 now and it's fantastic! Total cost is sub £10k and I love the damn thing. It's a GTA-R for the poor

Next step would be to stick the M50 manifold I have in the garage on it, some new cams, a remap etc. But being quite honest, it is absolutely perfectly judged for UK roads as it sits. Yep, it's not original yada yada but I buy cars to thrash and enjoy on road and that old banger does that in spades.

Maybe as mentioned a Meg on Ohlins would be great. I have been thinking FD2 as well but I would miss the RWD. You are then into GR86 territory which is likely the direction I will take and to hell with practicality. Will get a bit more seat time and do a back to back with the old girl to see if it is much more fun (I expect it to better the 328 in some ways and lose out on others ). I have driven an M140i and thought it was beyond crap - it's too much of a jump to buy one and hope spending £3k+ at Birds will completely fix it. The PAS on that thing is attrocious.

All I know is there is very little out of the box in the sub £30k price bracket which is practical that can satisfy. C/E63s are lardy and auto, F80s may be worth a punt but not sure the bang/buck makes sense. Same with an E90 M3.

Bit of a ramble but the long and short is for me, at current prices the DC2 makes little sense. And even if you get one, expect to spend a load on top refreshing it. And fixing the rust.

Great cars for what they were designed and something I enjoyed in my 20s but wouldn't go back to now.

A 205 GTi on the other hand...

Other opinions are of course equally valid.

[911Spanker]

Jonstar said:

The problem is you are comparing heavily modified cars to a standard car so not really a fair comparison. Having driven z3m's and e36's their steering feel isn't even on the same level, dc2 is miles better, still the best rack I've used outside lotus and caterham.

The standard E36 steering is a bit cack. The much needed Z3 rack is 2.7 turns L2L and can be bought for a couple of hundred quid. I wouldn't run an E36 without it.

I have been running my BMW alongside my Caterham, Elise and 996 for many years. As I did when I had my DC2. There have been many days I have just spend the whole time thrashing the hell out of all of them, one after the other. Th old E36 is no poor relation, believe me.

Also had a Cayman GT4 as well on the garage for a while but didn't enjoy it as much as the rest so it got binned.

[havoc]

911Spanker said:

And even if you get one, expect to spend a load on top refreshing it. And fixing the rust.

...

A 205 GTi on the other hand...

Other opinions are of course equally valid.

First point - agreed. If I was spending £20k (IF), I'd want pretty much all the refresh already done. But half the people who own them know won't know what they should be like and won't have bothered, as it'll be an "investment"! :spit:

205 GTi - drove a friend's one, before and after he Mi16 converted it. The light weight and resulting chuckability were great, but the rest of the package couldn't compete with the DC2. Think you've some rose-tints there. (Of course, Mi16 conversion plus more modern coilovers made it a far more serious proposition, just like your modded cars...very quick, but stil somewhat of a wild ride on the wrong road)

[HayesDC2]

Wish I never sold mine, awesome cars but I couldn't imagine spending 15K+ on one, particularly as I only paid 3K for mine (and then god knows how much on modifications).

[TameRacingDriver]

911Spanker said:

TameRacingDriver said:

I had a 328 E36 and it's nowhere near as good as a dc2 to drive apart from the rwd thing, but it's just boring in comparison.

I imagine a GR86 is really just a modern RWD teg so not that different in many respects.

I think you just prefer RWD, nothing wrong with that of course.

Apologies, was at FOS yesterday - cracking day!

Yep, I can't do FWD anymore as it is mastered in such a short time that it no longer interests me.

My E36 has about £5k of mods (yep, it's unfair on the old Honda) but Z3 rack, E30 arms, B12s, Eibach ARBs transform it from a feel point of view (as good of not better than my tweaked 996 and no disappointments after jumping into it from my S1 Elise). Fantastic ride and handling, great steering and of course power oversteer in demand.

I did spend another £2k at Birds on a Quaife diff and 3.7 ratio FD - the gear ratios are probably similar to a DC2 now and it's fantastic! Total cost is sub £10k and I love the damn thing. It's a GTA-R for the poor

Next step would be to stick the M50 manifold I have in the garage on it, some new cams, a remap etc. But being quite honest, it is absolutely perfectly judged for UK roads as it sits. Yep, it's not original yada yada but I buy cars to thrash and enjoy on road and that old banger does that in spades.

Maybe as mentioned a Meg on Ohlins would be great. I have been thinking FD2 as well but I would miss the RWD. You are then into GR86 territory which is likely the direction I will take and to hell with practicality. Will get a bit more seat time and do a back to back with the old girl to see if it is much more fun (I expect it to better the 328 in some ways and lose out on others ). I have driven an M140i and thought it was beyond crap - it's too much of a jump to buy one and hope spending £3k+ at Birds will completely fix it. The PAS on that thing is attrocious.

All I know is there is very little out of the box in the sub £30k price bracket which is practical that can satisfy. C/E63s are lardy and auto, F80s may be worth a punt but not sure the bang/buck makes sense. Same with an E90 M3.

Bit of a ramble but the long and short is for me, at current prices the DC2 makes little sense. And even if you get one, expect to spend a load on top refreshing it. And fixing the rust.

Great cars for what they were designed and something I enjoyed in my 20s but wouldn't go back to now.

A 205 GTi on the other hand...

Other opinions are of course equally valid.

Fair play, I can imagine your car is a hoot with those mods and tend to agree that dc2s are too much money nowadays, to think I sold mine for £4k back in the day and it was a decent example.

I'm the same for what it's worth, much prefer RWD and to be honest I wouldn't swap my current BBR MX5 for a DC2 as much as I admire the latter. For what I want out of a car it simply does the things I want better. Not taking anything away from the Honda as it's great, and I still think it's one of the most sorted cars out of the box I've ever experienced, needing virtually no modifications to be about as good as it can be, and for that it should be applauded, but I've moved on now. Happy memories though

[Terminator X]

Owned a DC2 then a DC5. The 2 sounded amazing, often used it to scare pedestrians who didn't expect such a noise. Cam changeover was epic too. The DC5 arguably better looking but they softened the vtec so not so good, for me anyway.

TX.

[TameRacingDriver]

Terminator X said:

Owned a DC2 then a DC5. The 2 sounded amazing, often used it to scare pedestrians who didn't expect such a noise. Cam changeover was epic too. The DC5 arguably better looking but they softened the vtec so not so good, for me anyway.

TX.

I remember that part of its personality too. One particular person actually jumped in the bushes as I went by with the car in VTEC which to this day is probably the funniest thing I've ever seen as a driver of a car

[havoc]

I have very fond memories of winter commutes in particular...something about the cold air made that snarl even more vocal, more animalistic.

...I'd baby her up the A46 from home for the first 10 minutes to warm up, get to Longbridge (M40 J15), then as I exited the roundabout I'd give it as much as the road surface would take and surf that sound through second and third gears up the road. Better than any 4-pot has a right to sound, almost organic* and alive.

...and now everything's going EV...



* The K20, while a much better engine in all reasonable measures, always sounds more mechanical...reminds me of the E46 M3's very metallic timbre, vs the NSX's (again more 'natural') snarl.

[carlo996]

A 205 isn't a patch on the DC2, it feels quite ordinary in comparison. Probably the best route is to import one, although I prefer the UK front end. Whatever you buy the key will be to change all the bushes etc to make sure they drive as intended, there are a lot of 'upgraded' cars with crap obscure suspension which will make them really harsh. I'd love to try a K20 in one, although the B18 is a great engine and so raw. Great cars.

[bumskins]

911Spanker said:

My E36 has about £5k of mods (yep, it's unfair on the old Honda) but Z3 rack, E30 arms, B12s, Eibach ARBs transform it from a feel point of view (as good of not better than my tweaked 996 and no disappointments after jumping into it from my S1 Elise). Fantastic ride and handling, great steering and of course power oversteer in demand.

I did spend another £2k at Birds on a Quaife diff and 3.7 ratio FD - the gear ratios are probably similar to a DC2 now and it's fantastic! Total cost is sub £10k and I love the damn thing. It's a GTA-R for the poor

E36s are all well and good, but they're heavy old boats (out of the box a ridiculous amount vs. E30s) and as outlined in your post, need plenty of 'bolt on' changes to be made in order to bring the best out of them. The Honda is/needs none of these things, and if you applied a similar modification budget on a K20-swap, coilovers/camber arms, JDM 6 speed box, plated LSD etc. it would be in a different league. Only downside is FWD

Glad I had my fun in E36s years ago when M3s were rife at <£5k, the prices people pay for them nowdays IMO is daft

[TameRacingDriver]

bumskins said:

The Honda is/needs none of these things, and if you applied a similar modification budget on a K20-swap, coilovers/camber arms, JDM 6 speed box, plated LSD etc. it would be in a different league. Only downside is FWD

I'm not convinced any of those mods would make it more fun to be honest, faster on a race track certainly, but on a road I think the standard car would be more fun than it would after adding those mods. Not least because, as havoc mentioned just before, the k20 is just not as sonorous or enjoyable as the b18, even though it does have a lot more potential.

[Hippea]

These are very special cars, even at £20k there isn't much at the same price that gets close for the overall package.

[havoc]

TameRacingDriver said:

I'm not convinced any of those mods would make it more fun to be honest, faster on a race track certainly, but on a road I think the standard car would be more fun than it would after adding those mods. Not least because, as havoc mentioned just before, the k20 is just not as sonorous or enjoyable as the b18, even though it does have a lot more potential.

Despite the fact that the DC5 is nicer and better-equipped inside and has a more tractable engine, if I wanted a trackday car I'd start with a DC5, and if I wanted a road car I'd start with a DC2.

[nebpor]

Fully agree - I spent a few passenger laps in a DC5 and whilst it had more torque and much better grip, it wasn't anything like as fun an experience IMO

[Koolkat969]

havoc said:

I have very fond memories of winter commutes in particular...something about the cold air made that snarl even more vocal, more animalistic.

...I'd baby her up the A46 from home for the first 10 minutes to warm up, get to Longbridge (M40 J15), then as I exited the roundabout I'd give it as much as the road surface would take and surf that sound through second and third gears up the road. Better than any 4-pot has a right to sound, almost organic* and alive.

...and now everything's going EV...



* The K20, while a much better engine in all reasonable measures, always sounds more mechanical...reminds me of the E46 M3's very metallic timbre, vs the NSX's (again more 'natural') snarl.

DC2 sounds even more bonkers with Mugen bits - Intake, Downpipe and Twin Loop Exhaust.

Not chavy, doesn't drone, some claimed performance gains but the best bit is how it amplifies the sound to orgasmic levels

One of the best parts of enjoyment of the car for me and an upgrade i highly recommend!

[nebpor]

Mine sounded even more bonkers with ITBs and Jun3 cams on it

My god I miss that car ....

[Hippea]

Ooof

https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/15345715

[Jonstar]

That's lovely, I feel like getting another one all of a sudden.

The only good thing about these cars increasing in value is it keeps more of them on the road and people are more inclined to look after them.

For 20k I still think they are cheap if you are only concerned with the driving experience.