RE: Lotus Exige Sport 410: Driven
Discussion
I guess many posters above here have zero understanding of the car industry.
Lotus is making tons of derivatives of the Elise and Evora because it only has 2 chassis. New cars cost huge amounts of money and until recently Lotus did not have any, hence these derivatives. They are doing what they can afford to do and its working well for them.
They have money now but new cars take time develop with the new Elise due in 2020 and others from that point on. Also they can now access Volvo's tech and other tech from their owner but this takes work, a lot of it, and relatively speaking Lotus is a very small company with very small resources.
So, before you all b
h on about another derivative, why don't they do X,Y and Z, blah blah, etc. think about why they don't. Yet.
Lotus is making tons of derivatives of the Elise and Evora because it only has 2 chassis. New cars cost huge amounts of money and until recently Lotus did not have any, hence these derivatives. They are doing what they can afford to do and its working well for them.
They have money now but new cars take time develop with the new Elise due in 2020 and others from that point on. Also they can now access Volvo's tech and other tech from their owner but this takes work, a lot of it, and relatively speaking Lotus is a very small company with very small resources.
So, before you all b
h on about another derivative, why don't they do X,Y and Z, blah blah, etc. think about why they don't. Yet.leglessAlex said:
Jean Marc Gales seems very very competent on the production side of things, by all accounts the cars are much better quality on the inside than they were 10 years ago. Maybe they need someone like him for the marketing/future planning department?
He’s a cost cutter not a brand builder - it was the same story at PSA.
Ultimately he needs to tap dance with the existing range for another 18 months or so until the new car comes. Not easy when trying to increase sales volumes. Hence the need to launch a ‘new’ variant every few months.
God knows what promises / sales forecasts he made to Geeley to secure the sale of Lotus.
He’ll certainly be under a lot of pressure to deliver them.
Lotus is a precious jewel, I wish him all the best.
leglessAlex said:
I know you're exaggerating it, but I think it's Lotus' release strategy across all the models that creates the issue more than the number of updates themselves.
If we go though the Exige S V6 releases:
Exige S V6 - Sep 2011 (although it was put forward as a 2012 model)
Exige V6 Cup - Jan 2013
Exige S V6 Roadster - July 2013
Exige Cup 360 - August 2015
Exige Sport 380 - November 2016
Exige Cup 380 - April 2017
Exige Cup 430 - November 2017
Exige Sport 410 - May 2018
So on average, one every six months, and it's not always the same update (as in, it's not a new 'normal' car every six months). Still, I think when you add that to the steady stream of Elises and Evoras, which also seem to get released at random times, it makes the whole company seem a little silly.
What makes me concerned is that there doesn't seem to be any plan to how they release things. They could have boiled all those separate releases down into:
Exige S V6 + Roadster - Mid 2012
Exige Sport + Cup 380 - Mid 2015
Exige Sport 410 +Cup 430 - Mid 2018
This seems a lot more cohesive to me. Add to that some organising of the Evora and Elise releases and I think it would make the whole company seem a little (a lot) more organised.
Jean Marc Gales seems very very competent on the production side of things, by all accounts the cars are much better quality on the inside than they were 10 years ago. Maybe they need someone like him for the marketing/future planning department?
You missed the Exige Sport 350 - April 2016 If we go though the Exige S V6 releases:
Exige S V6 - Sep 2011 (although it was put forward as a 2012 model)
Exige V6 Cup - Jan 2013
Exige S V6 Roadster - July 2013
Exige Cup 360 - August 2015
Exige Sport 380 - November 2016
Exige Cup 380 - April 2017
Exige Cup 430 - November 2017
Exige Sport 410 - May 2018
So on average, one every six months, and it's not always the same update (as in, it's not a new 'normal' car every six months). Still, I think when you add that to the steady stream of Elises and Evoras, which also seem to get released at random times, it makes the whole company seem a little silly.
What makes me concerned is that there doesn't seem to be any plan to how they release things. They could have boiled all those separate releases down into:
Exige S V6 + Roadster - Mid 2012
Exige Sport + Cup 380 - Mid 2015
Exige Sport 410 +Cup 430 - Mid 2018
This seems a lot more cohesive to me. Add to that some organising of the Evora and Elise releases and I think it would make the whole company seem a little (a lot) more organised.
Jean Marc Gales seems very very competent on the production side of things, by all accounts the cars are much better quality on the inside than they were 10 years ago. Maybe they need someone like him for the marketing/future planning department?
Frimley111R said:
I guess many posters above here have zero understanding of the car industry.
Lotus is making tons of derivatives of the Elise and Evora because it only has 2 chassis. New cars cost huge amounts of money and until recently Lotus did not have any, hence these derivatives. They are doing what they can afford to do and its working well for them.
They have money now but new cars take time develop with the new Elise due in 2020 and others from that point on. Also they can now access Volvo's tech and other tech from their owner but this takes work, a lot of it, and relatively speaking Lotus is a very small company with very small resources.
So, before you all bh on about another derivative, why don't they do X,Y and Z, blah blah, etc. think about why they don't. Yet.
I think Lamborghini could be a model for Lotus to follow giving the relationship with Volvo, access to tech and development resource? They have a similarly challenged financial history but now thriving with a secure future. Make a couple of models to sell, widen the brand profile, and generate revenue to pay for the smaller run, 'hard core' sports cars.Lotus is making tons of derivatives of the Elise and Evora because it only has 2 chassis. New cars cost huge amounts of money and until recently Lotus did not have any, hence these derivatives. They are doing what they can afford to do and its working well for them.
They have money now but new cars take time develop with the new Elise due in 2020 and others from that point on. Also they can now access Volvo's tech and other tech from their owner but this takes work, a lot of it, and relatively speaking Lotus is a very small company with very small resources.
So, before you all b
h on about another derivative, why don't they do X,Y and Z, blah blah, etc. think about why they don't. Yet.MellowshipSlinky said:
leglessAlex said:
I know you're exaggerating it, but I think it's Lotus' release strategy across all the models that creates the issue more than the number of updates themselves.
If we go though the Exige S V6 releases:
Exige S V6 - Sep 2011 (although it was put forward as a 2012 model)
Exige V6 Cup - Jan 2013
Exige S V6 Roadster - July 2013
Exige Cup 360 - August 2015
Exige Sport 380 - November 2016
Exige Cup 380 - April 2017
Exige Cup 430 - November 2017
Exige Sport 410 - May 2018
So on average, one every six months, and it's not always the same update (as in, it's not a new 'normal' car every six months). Still, I think when you add that to the steady stream of Elises and Evoras, which also seem to get released at random times, it makes the whole company seem a little silly.
What makes me concerned is that there doesn't seem to be any plan to how they release things. They could have boiled all those separate releases down into:
Exige S V6 + Roadster - Mid 2012
Exige Sport + Cup 380 - Mid 2015
Exige Sport 410 +Cup 430 - Mid 2018
This seems a lot more cohesive to me. Add to that some organising of the Evora and Elise releases and I think it would make the whole company seem a little (a lot) more organised.
Jean Marc Gales seems very very competent on the production side of things, by all accounts the cars are much better quality on the inside than they were 10 years ago. Maybe they need someone like him for the marketing/future planning department?
You missed the Exige Sport 350 - April 2016 If we go though the Exige S V6 releases:
Exige S V6 - Sep 2011 (although it was put forward as a 2012 model)
Exige V6 Cup - Jan 2013
Exige S V6 Roadster - July 2013
Exige Cup 360 - August 2015
Exige Sport 380 - November 2016
Exige Cup 380 - April 2017
Exige Cup 430 - November 2017
Exige Sport 410 - May 2018
So on average, one every six months, and it's not always the same update (as in, it's not a new 'normal' car every six months). Still, I think when you add that to the steady stream of Elises and Evoras, which also seem to get released at random times, it makes the whole company seem a little silly.
What makes me concerned is that there doesn't seem to be any plan to how they release things. They could have boiled all those separate releases down into:
Exige S V6 + Roadster - Mid 2012
Exige Sport + Cup 380 - Mid 2015
Exige Sport 410 +Cup 430 - Mid 2018
This seems a lot more cohesive to me. Add to that some organising of the Evora and Elise releases and I think it would make the whole company seem a little (a lot) more organised.
Jean Marc Gales seems very very competent on the production side of things, by all accounts the cars are much better quality on the inside than they were 10 years ago. Maybe they need someone like him for the marketing/future planning department?
The perception (at least my perception) of Lotus right now, is if you have the money to buy the best car Lotus can make, hang on a few months, because that car will arrive. Then just repeat.
If I was going to sink my hard earned into a weekend car, sadly Lotus wouldn't even be on my list. But then the Perception again is that all Lotus cars are either Track day toys or weekend cars only. Not many 911, or even TT-RS owners would probably consider swapping out of their cars for a Lotus, as they aren't the best cars to run everyday. Not saying you can't, but there are compromises that other rivals don't have.
Maldini35 said:
Ultimately he needs to tap dance with the existing range for another 18 months or so until the new car comes. Not easy when trying to increase sales volumes. Hence the need to launch a ‘new’ variant every few months.
True, I guess I hadn't thought about it in terms of just trying to sell as many cars as possible. I guess a more 'coherent' (at least, that's the word I'd use) strategy needs a more stable company environment and less of an inherited mess, as per what Gales got from Bahar. Do all these releases actually have a negative impact on the image of the company? I mean, I know PH is pretty derisive of it, but is it really hurting sales much?
I try and imagine how I'd think of it if I was in a position to buy a Lotus, and to be perfectly honest I'm not sure it'd bother me all that much. A good car is still a good car even if another is released 4-6 months later.
MellowshipSlinky said:
You missed the Exige Sport 350 - April 2016
You're right, I did. I still think that if Lotus were able to co-ordinate the releases of their models more, as I said in my original post, they'd look a little better to buyers. But then, as I mentioned above, do they really need to? Is it actually hurting sales? I do not know. wab172uk said:
Not many 911, or even TT-RS owners would probably consider swapping out of their cars for a Lotus, as they aren't the best cars to run everyday. Not saying you can't, but there are compromises that other rivals don't have.
There are always compromises. In the case of the 911 (and I expect the TT-RS, probably more so given its humble origins) the compromise is that in making it perfectly ordinary to drive everyday, you make it perfectly ordinary to drive everyday. Unless you are driving it hard, you may as well be in a generic German saloon car. That's why lots of people buy them. It's also why it left me cold. Frimley111R said:
I guess many posters above here have zero understanding of the car industry.
Lotus is making tons of derivatives of the Elise and Evora because it only has 2 chassis. New cars cost huge amounts of money and until recently Lotus did not have any, hence these derivatives. They are doing what they can afford to do and its working well for them.
They have money now but new cars take time develop with the new Elise due in 2020 and others from that point on. Also they can now access Volvo's tech and other tech from their owner but this takes work, a lot of it, and relatively speaking Lotus is a very small company with very small resources.
So, before you all bh on about another derivative, why don't they do X,Y and Z, blah blah, etc. think about why they don't. Yet.
They have cut costs to make the cars more profitable. Sales have risen slightly due to getting into the US. But I doubt Lotus is flush with cash. Without new cars, and cars that can compete as an everyday proposition, which means easy to get in and out of, well made, reliable, and most of all, cars that are nice to look at that people want to be seen in. Just like the Pic of the proposed all new Elise previously posted.Lotus is making tons of derivatives of the Elise and Evora because it only has 2 chassis. New cars cost huge amounts of money and until recently Lotus did not have any, hence these derivatives. They are doing what they can afford to do and its working well for them.
They have money now but new cars take time develop with the new Elise due in 2020 and others from that point on. Also they can now access Volvo's tech and other tech from their owner but this takes work, a lot of it, and relatively speaking Lotus is a very small company with very small resources.
So, before you all b
h on about another derivative, why don't they do X,Y and Z, blah blah, etc. think about why they don't. Yet.Without that, Lotus will be just a small car company that sells over priced track and weekend cars to a small minority of car enthusiasts.
wab172uk said:
If any other manufacturer kept updating their cars every couple months, there would be a thread so long, it would take a year to read it.
Yet :Lotus do it, and no one bats an eyelid.
No one bats an eyelid as, compared to e.g. Porsche, no one buys a Lotus anyway Yet :Lotus do it, and no one bats an eyelid.
The good thing about it: a V6S with 5k mls on the clock is 80% of the car a 410 is at 50% the price
leglessAlex said:
wab172uk said:
Flogging a dead horse comes to mind.
Sure they are selling them, (in small numbers) but their cars are now beyond the means of the average man in the street. So now, they are purely the preserve of the rich who are after a track car. And the rich who clearly may want to change it every couple months to have the latest, fastest one.
If any other manufacturer kept updating their cars every couple months, there would be a thread so long, it would take a year to read it.
January - Audi RS3 400
March - Audi RS3-R 430
May - Audi RS3-RS 460
July Audi RS3-RS-R 500
September - Audi RS3-RS-RS (530)
November - Audi RS3-RS-RS-R (560)
Yet :Lotus do it, and no one bats an eyelid.
I know you're exaggerating it, but I think it's Lotus' release strategy across all the models that creates the issue more than the number of updates themselves. Sure they are selling them, (in small numbers) but their cars are now beyond the means of the average man in the street. So now, they are purely the preserve of the rich who are after a track car. And the rich who clearly may want to change it every couple months to have the latest, fastest one.
If any other manufacturer kept updating their cars every couple months, there would be a thread so long, it would take a year to read it.
January - Audi RS3 400
March - Audi RS3-R 430
May - Audi RS3-RS 460
July Audi RS3-RS-R 500
September - Audi RS3-RS-RS (530)
November - Audi RS3-RS-RS-R (560)
Yet :Lotus do it, and no one bats an eyelid.
If we go though the Exige S V6 releases:
Exige S V6 - Sep 2011 (although it was put forward as a 2012 model)
Exige V6 Cup - Jan 2013
Exige S V6 Roadster - July 2013
Exige Cup 360 - August 2015
Exige Sport 380 - November 2016
Exige Cup 380 - April 2017
Exige Cup 430 - November 2017
Exige Sport 410 - May 2018
So on average, one every six months, and it's not always the same update (as in, it's not a new 'normal' car every six months). Still, I think when you add that to the steady stream of Elises and Evoras, which also seem to get released at random times, it makes the whole company seem a little silly.
https://presse.porsche.de/prod/presse_pag/PressRes...
There are 11 different variants of 911 Carrera. Also 2 Targas. 5 turbos. a GT2RS, GT3, GT3RS, and a 911 R.
It does seem odd that some people on Pistonheads seem to feel... threatened I suppose is the word, by the very existence of driver-focussed cars. Yes, Lotus could go and build dull mainstream cars like Audi or to a lesser extent Porsche but why would anyone want them to do that when Audi and Porsche are so good at it?
What is it that offends people so much about Lotus's refusal to cater for the masses who are more interested in whether something is the latest shiny model than how it drives? No-one is trying to force you to buy one, if you want something like an Audi TT or a Cayman, buy an Audi TT or a Cayman.
What is it that offends people so much about Lotus's refusal to cater for the masses who are more interested in whether something is the latest shiny model than how it drives? No-one is trying to force you to buy one, if you want something like an Audi TT or a Cayman, buy an Audi TT or a Cayman.
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 15th May 16:47
kambites said:
It does seem odd that some people on Pistonheads seem to feel... threatened I suppose is the word, by the very existence of driver-focussed cars. Yes, Lotus could go and build dull mainstream cars like Audi or to a lesser extent Porsche but why would anyone want them to do that when Audi and Porsche are so good at it?
What is it that offends people so much about Lotus's refusal to cater for the masses who are more interested in whether something is the latest shiny model than how it drives? No-one is trying to force you to buy one, if you want something like an Audi TT or a Cayman, buy an Audi TT or a Cayman.
But it would be nice to at least have the choice of a British sports car that is maybe a little more road focused and could be that every day car. What is it that offends people so much about Lotus's refusal to cater for the masses who are more interested in whether something is the latest shiny model than how it drives? No-one is trying to force you to buy one, if you want something like an Audi TT or a Cayman, buy an Audi TT or a Cayman.
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 15th May 16:47
All the current Lotus range are essentially track day/weekend toys - so where is the modern day equivalent of the Elan/Eclat/Elite/Excel etc - something that could go up against a lower end Caymen or Alpine for example?
They don't need to sell their soul but just something a little more road focused and less "trackday". And that doesn't have to mean dull.
Edited by GTEYE on Tuesday 15th May 17:18
otolith said:
So eight variants since 2011.
https://presse.porsche.de/prod/presse_pag/PressRes...
There are 11 different variants of 911 Carrera. Also 2 Targas. 5 turbos. a GT2RS, GT3, GT3RS, and a 911 R.
And this was kind of my point, Porsche's release strategy is such that people only notice the 'big' introductions. They introduce the whole range, then the GT3, then the GT3 RS, followed by a refresh of the whole range, GT3, GT3 RS and so on. https://presse.porsche.de/prod/presse_pag/PressRes...
There are 11 different variants of 911 Carrera. Also 2 Targas. 5 turbos. a GT2RS, GT3, GT3RS, and a 911 R.
Add to that a couple of special editions, but their marketing and business strategy is such that it never feels like there's an excess of models being updated or introduced.
This was my point about compressing the original release of the normal and topless Exige into one release, then the Sport and Cup 380 a few years later and so on. They'd have to co-ordinate it with the Elise and Evora releases too of course.
I hadn't thought about Lotus' need to make as much money as quickly as possible though, if you think about it like that then certainly a constant stream of limited production cars you know will sell makes a lot of sense. This then leads you to wonder if that short term strategy is worth it, or if it is damaging the brand in too many people's eyes. I just don't have the expertise or knowledge to answer that. You could even argue that it's irrelevant now they have been bought by Geely and have solid financial backing now.
Yep, wasn't disagreeing with you, just adding some comparative data.
That site lets you download a press release for each of those Porsches, but I guess the media don't really bother covering most of it. Maybe if Lotus released as many variants their press releases wouldn't be newsworthy either?
That site lets you download a press release for each of those Porsches, but I guess the media don't really bother covering most of it. Maybe if Lotus released as many variants their press releases wouldn't be newsworthy either?
GTEYE said:
But it would be nice to at least have the choice of a British sports car that is maybe a little more road focused and could be that every day car.
All the current Lotus range are essentially track day/weekend toys - so where is the modern day equivalent of the Elan/Eclat/Elite/Excel etc - something that could go up against a lower end Caymen or Alpine for example?
They don't need to sell their soul but just something a little more road focused and less "trackday". And that doesn't have to mean dull.
Like an Evora?All the current Lotus range are essentially track day/weekend toys - so where is the modern day equivalent of the Elan/Eclat/Elite/Excel etc - something that could go up against a lower end Caymen or Alpine for example?
They don't need to sell their soul but just something a little more road focused and less "trackday". And that doesn't have to mean dull.
Edited by GTEYE on Tuesday 15th May 17:18
GTEYE said:
But it would be nice to at least have the choice of a British sports car that is maybe a little more road focused and could be that every day car.
I'm guessing you mean "cheaper than an Evora", since that's what that is? Jaguar F-Type? They're 50k, but realistically that's what you'd be looking at for a Lotus and you'd do well to spec a Cayman of Boxster for much less.
If you're thinking downmarket from there, TT/MX5 territory, I think it's a non-starter. Lotus's vehicle architecture and production infrastructure is not geared towards cheap mass production, they couldn't compete on price with a mainstream product against pressed steel rivals and would lose on fit, finish and toys.
GTEYE said:
But it would be nice to at least have the choice of a British sports car that is maybe a little more road focused and could be that every day car.
All the current Lotus range are essentially track day/weekend toys - so where is the modern day equivalent of the Elan/Eclat/Elite/Excel etc - something that could go up against a lower end Caymen or Alpine for example?
They don't need to sell their soul but just something a little more road focused and less "trackday". And that doesn't have to mean dull.
Elise or Evora...All the current Lotus range are essentially track day/weekend toys - so where is the modern day equivalent of the Elan/Eclat/Elite/Excel etc - something that could go up against a lower end Caymen or Alpine for example?
They don't need to sell their soul but just something a little more road focused and less "trackday". And that doesn't have to mean dull.
Edited by GTEYE on Tuesday 15th May 17:18
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