IOM TT 2018 Car Lap record run?

[blade7]

A bike will for the foreseeable future continue to hold the fastest lap around the TT course, that is a fact. Pages of arguments about this or that car went faster somewhere else aren't in dispute, that is another fact. 2 facts amongst many boring attempts at points scoring by the usual suspects it seems.

[RobM77]

blade7 said:

A bike will for the foreseeable future continue to hold the fastest lap around the TT course, that is a fact. Pages of arguments about this or that car went faster somewhere else aren't in dispute, that is another fact. 2 facts amongst many boring attempts at points scoring by the usual suspects it seems.

It's just an interesting discussion by petrolheads, I don't see any bad intentions behind what's been said. The problem, imho, is certain bikers getting really defensive. I'm faster than my cat from one of my garden to the other, but it's pretty obvious that if Usain Bolt came to tea he could beat us both, even after lots of cake.

Sometimes when you're bored at work it's fun to discuss such things. For example, I'd like to know how fast a Moto GP bike could get around Monaco, or how a helicopter would do on a Red Bull air race course. Just fun hypothetical questions.

[RobM77]

Nanook said:

RobM77 said:

It's just an interesting discussion by petrolheads, I don't see any bad intentions behind what's been said. The problem, imho, is certain bikers getting really defensive. I'm faster than my cat from one of my garden to the other, but it's pretty obvious that if Usain Bolt came to tea he could beat us both, even after lots of cake.

Sometimes when you're bored at work it's fun to discuss such things. For example, I'd like to know how fast a Moto GP bike could get around Monaco, or how a helicopter would do on a Red Bull air race course. Just fun hypothetical questions.

You must have a fat cat. My cat could smoke me in a Shaun Of The Dead style garden jumping.

Do you have any lap times for your cat?

[otolith]

Nanook said:

You must have a fat cat. My cat could smoke me in a Shaun Of The Dead style garden jumping.

My cat would have me in the corners.

Also, over the fence.

[RobM77]

otolith said:

Nanook said:

You must have a fat cat. My cat could smoke me in a Shaun Of The Dead style garden jumping.

My cat would have me in the corners.

Also, over the fence.

To be fair, yes, my cat's cornering is far better than mine. CofG and four paws on the ground rather than two. Sound familiar?

[RB Will]

CypSIdders said:

Meanwhile back in the real world.

Not sure what you are driving at. Nobody was saying the bikes don't have the records?

I'm not trying to say the bikes are crap, cars are better etc I was just showing the "data" on why I thought what I did.

ZX10R NIN said:

No one has dismissed the mods & if you remember I quoted you the production lap record times (when you were only allowed to run an end can & power commander) & they weren't far apart.

Using the same tyres as the Superstock the a showroom spec S1000RR is around 4-6 seconds off around Brands GP also Rutter wasn't trying he never does (he's still getting a move on but not even close to race pace) he wouldn't risk not racing.

The Superstock rules aren't extensive, basically it's head cams limited suspension (you can't change the brakes) work exhaust wiring loom & ecu work, all in all once you've bought & fitted that lot you have a bike that has cost between (depending on the Spec of your enjoying) 25-35k with 15-20bhp more but with much better suspension which is where 80% of you lap time will come from.

When you read the rules they may sound extensive the reality is they aren't, extensive changes come when you build a Superbike.

I'll say it again come over to the Manx Southern & TT to see for yourselves.

Well not the mods dismissed as such but the cumulative effect of them was perhaps understated/ underestimated.
Again I'm not trying to belittle the bikes performance. Its amazing what the machines and riders do. I'm just exploring the idea of how much time a race bike makes over a road bike.

If you are saying 5 secs over a lap of Brands that is a fair old chunk and again I know it doesn't scale up exactly but over the TT length that is 78 secs, way more than the difference between the outright lap record and the Subaru.


Looking another way. At Cadwell if its 10 sec slower on the standard bike compared to the race Superstocker that is the equivalent of the difference between a Seat Leon and a Porsche 911 Turbo! You wouldn't say there were anywhere near similar so I don't feel you can say a superstock bike is a near standard bike.

[anonymous-user]

RB Will said:

If you are saying 5 secs over a lap of Brands that is a fair old chunk and again I know it doesn't scale up exactly but over the TT length that is 78 secs, way more than the difference between the outright lap record and the Subaru.

Going back to your earlier example, this is like saying if you are 10 seconds a lap faster around your garden, than your car, you’ll beat it by 25 mins on a lap of the TT course. A bit of a pointless extrapolation to compare different things.

The super twins are tuned to only 100hp yet they are about the same speed as the car. Perhaps that’s a better place to start the comparison?

[RobM77]

wormus said:

RB Will said:

If you are saying 5 secs over a lap of Brands that is a fair old chunk and again I know it doesn't scale up exactly but over the TT length that is 78 secs, way more than the difference between the outright lap record and the Subaru.

Going back to your earlier example, this is like saying if you are 10 seconds a lap faster around your garden, than your car, you’ll beat it by 25 mins on a lap of the TT course. A bit of a pointless extrapolation to compare different things.

The super twins are tuned to only 100hp yet they are about the same speed as the car. Perhaps that’s a better place to start the comparison?

This is a good and valid point, so we have to be careful we're comparing like with like. Differences around Monaco wouldn't translate to Silverstone. This is why throughout the thread we've been careful to look at long circuits with long flat out sections, like the Nurburgring, or European hillclimbs. I'd still call it inconclusive if the differences we saw were small, because the TT is in many ways unique, but the differences aren't small, they're absolutely enormous at every circuit you look at. Fastest car ring lap recorded: 5min19. Fastest bike time: 7min50, or BTG 7min10, and that's 3 times shorter than the IOM TT course, so scaling up we'd be looking at well over 6 minutes difference. Furthermore, the bumps at the IOM favour a car over a bike. The TT course does favour heavy acceleration and top speed though, I'll give it that, which favours the bike - but not enough to make up that sort of difference, nowhere near it. To put it another way, a shade over two minutes at the ring is the difference between an XJ220 and a Transit van.

Edited by RobM77 on Monday 1st October 18:09

[RB Will]

I did say numerous times it won’t scale up exactly the same from circuit to TT.
I’m trying to explore the genuine pace of a standard bike compared to a race one.
As the point we seemed to have reached here is purpose built race car would beat purpose built bike but a road car isn’t getting anywhere near a Superstock bike which is apparently basicallly a road bike.
My simple logic and any tests I have found have hinted that a Superstock bike is comfortably in another league performance wise to the standard bike so thought asking for a standard road car to beat one might be a bit much.
Standard road car vs standard road bike might actually be a lot closer than we thought.

[anonymous-user]

RB Will said:

I did say numerous times it won’t scale up exactly the same from circuit to TT.
I’m trying to explore the genuine pace of a standard bike compared to a race one.
As the point we seemed to have reached here is purpose built race car would beat purpose built bike but a road car isn’t getting anywhere near a Superstock bike which is apparently basicallly a road bike.
My simple logic and any tests I have found have hinted that a Superstock bike is comfortably in another league performance wise to the standard bike so thought asking for a standard road car to beat one might be a bit much.
Standard road car vs standard road bike might actually be a lot closer than we thought.

Depends a lot on the bike and the car. Commuter bike like an ER-6 vs M5, yes the car would win. But then the same bike with few tweaks would put in a 122mph lap on the IOM that the M5 would never get close to. My old ZZR is over 200hp and would blitz any car on the road in a straight line. However it would be crap around the IOM as it’s not built for corners. You cannot cannot really compare one with the other except to say 9 out of 10 times on the road, a well ridden sports bike in the dry will annihilate any car you are likely to meet. I say this as a biker with 25 years experience.

[RobM77]

RB Will said:

I did say numerous times it won’t scale up exactly the same from circuit to TT.
I’m trying to explore the genuine pace of a standard bike compared to a race one.
As the point we seemed to have reached here is purpose built race car would beat purpose built bike but a road car isn’t getting anywhere near a Superstock bike which is apparently basicallly a road bike.
My simple logic and any tests I have found have hinted that a Superstock bike is comfortably in another league performance wise to the standard bike so thought asking for a standard road car to beat one might be a bit much.
Standard road car vs standard road bike might actually be a lot closer than we thought.

I've read and watched lots of those sorts of tests over the years, as well as timed myself in my 2-Eleven and compared with bike laps. Largely it depends on the circuit; many of the bike specific UK circuits have tight temporary chicanes which destroy a car's laptime (e.g. the old Silverstone bike layout, or Mallory) and play to a bike's strengths (narrowness and acceleration!). On a normal flowing circuit though, something like a Caterham R500/2-Eleven etc is usually a bit faster than the quickest superbike, but not by much, and I suspect something like the latest BMW superbike may have an advantage now. The difference with cars though is that the step up from a road car to a racing car is enormous (far bigger than for bikes), because the advantages of wide tyres, downforce and extremely low CofG are so big. So as soon as we're talking purpose built racing car, yes, the car is always much, much faster. That's always been the case though - John Surtees famously said that's why he switched to cars, because they were faster.

[anonymous-user]

Did you see the bikes he raced back then? They’ve come a fair old way!

[Mound Dawg]

wormus said:

Did you see the bikes he raced back then? They’ve come a fair old way!

And cars haven't?

[anonymous-user]

Mound Dawg said:

And cars haven't?

Of course but arguably not the same degree. Around 18 years ago, superbikes were bespoke,
factory built requiring homologation. Now you can buy the real thing from a bike showroom and even moto gp bikes are closely related.

Cars got more comfortable, bigger, powerful but ultimately fatter and unwieldy.

Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 1st October 20:02

[hairykrishna]

RB Will said:

I did say numerous times it won’t scale up exactly the same from circuit to TT.
I’m trying to explore the genuine pace of a standard bike compared to a race one.
As the point we seemed to have reached here is purpose built race car would beat purpose built bike but a road car isn’t getting anywhere near a Superstock bike which is apparently basicallly a road bike.
My simple logic and any tests I have found have hinted that a Superstock bike is comfortably in another league performance wise to the standard bike so thought asking for a standard road car to beat one might be a bit much.
Standard road car vs standard road bike might actually be a lot closer than we thought.

I suspect it depends on how much you stretch your definition of road car. There are a selection of road legal Radicals which I suspect would be more than up to the job. That's at the 'reasonably priced' end of bonkers too. Do the the various Le Mans homogolation road cars count? In other words, does a Dauer 962 count as a road car?

An interesting question would be how extreme you needed to go before you could beat the record.

[blade7]

RobM77 said:

Fastest car ring lap recorded: 5min19. Fastest bike time: 7min50, or BTG 7min10, and that's 3 times shorter than the IOM TT course, so scaling up we'd be looking at well over 6 minutes difference.

An ancient R1 road bike with an amateur rider V a professional driver in a 919 Evo relates to the IOM TT course how exactly?

[anonymous-user]

wormus said:

except to say 9 out of 10 times on the road, a well ridden sports bike in the dry will annihilate any car you are likely to meet. I say this as a biker with 25 years experience.

On a dual carriageway or long straight single, where the bike can just zoom up to >150mph (assuming the rider DGAS about getting done for speeding) yup i agree, no chance for a car. However, on a single carriageway A road, and for definite on a narrow, wet bumpy B road, then without any other traffic, i've always been able to keep up with bikes in any reasonably quick car (say M3 or similar) The reason is simply one of "risk vs reward". Round a bend or come over a brow and find the road covered in cow sh*t, diesel, or another road user turning unexpectedly across your path, and in the car you just bury the middle pedal.. Lots of orange lights flash and the car stops. On a bike, if you ham fistedly grab a handful of brake, well, you're off. And it doesn't matter how good a rider you are, in the real world EVERYONE panics when the cow sh*t hits! ;-)

And the same on the way out, stamp on the throttle carelessly in that M3, and you get a blackpool illumination worthy set of dash lamps, but generally, the car stays on the road. Get greedy with the throttle on the bike, especially if the road is bumpy, and things get wild real quick on a modern high power sports bike.

Now, sure, the best riders would get away from a well driven M3 on the road, sure they could, but the fact is the risk they will take, and the potential result in terms of injury should they cock it up, are skewed well in favour of the car. In a modern car, even if you bin it into a field at 100mph there is actually a pretty decent chance you might walk, or limp, away from it. (just avoid the trees eh....) And the more the road is unknown to the rider, the bigger advantage the car gets ime.



However, these days, the real reason any sports bike(r) will just disappear from any car, and i mean any car can be spelled out as simply as:

T. R. A. F. F. I. C.

[DoubleD]

wormus said:

Mound Dawg said:

And cars haven't?

Of course but arguably not the same degree. Around 18 years ago, superbikes were bespoke,
factory built requiring homologation. Now you can buy the real thing from a bike showroom and even moto gp bikes are closely related.

Cars got more comfortable, bigger, powerful but ultimately fatter and unwieldy.

Edited by wormus on Monday 1st October 20:02

And faster

[RobM77]

blade7 said:

RobM77 said:

Fastest car ring lap recorded: 5min19. Fastest bike time: 7min50, or BTG 7min10, and that's 3 times shorter than the IOM TT course, so scaling up we'd be looking at well over 6 minutes difference.

An ancient R1 road bike with an amateur rider V a professional driver in a 919 Evo relates to the IOM TT course how exactly?

If you don't want to use that track as a comparison, that's ok, name your circuit and we'll look at the lap times. As I said earlier, even a lightweight 240bhp Moto GP bike can't keep up with a junior level single seater, they're actually around GT3 pace.

[Mound Dawg]

wormus said:

Mound Dawg said:

And cars haven't?

Of course but arguably not the same degree. Around 18 years ago, superbikes were bespoke,
factory built requiring homologation. Now you can buy the real thing from a bike showroom and even moto gp bikes are closely related.

Cars got more comfortable, bigger, powerful but ultimately fatter and unwieldy.

Edited by wormus on Monday 1st October 20:02

Weren't we talking about John Surtees who gave up riding bikes to race cars like this?