IOM TT 2018 Car Lap record run?

[kiseca]

warch said:

kiseca said:

A bike leaning over in a corner doesn't have a lot of suspension travel available to deal with a vertical deflection, but I wouldn't think that matters much. How many bumps are they going to encounter on a road fit for racing that require full deflection in anything other than a formula car to deal with?

To me the bigger problem is the angle the suspension is operating at when a bike encounters a bump mid corner. It's leaning well over and the shock is trying to bend the forks more than it is trying to compress the suspension. I'd imagine that presents more of a challenge than it does for a car.

This image of talentless tv personality Guy Martin hard over, wheelieing and airborne springs to mind. It doesn't look like he's backed off much for that corner

Edited by warch on Thursday 22 August 12:38

It's a lovely picture of a committed moment but does nothing to explain how well a bike manages those difficulties compared to a car. I see a bike being pushed to the max. What would a car be doing at the same speed around the same corner over that same undulation? Would it be as dramatic or would it be well within its limits and look somewhat sedate? Or would it be going backwards towards the scenery?

By the way, I wouldn't call him talentless, personally, but if that's your opinion then fine.

[warch]

kiseca said:

It's a lovely picture of a committed moment but does nothing to explain how well a bike manages those difficulties compared to a car. I see a bike being pushed to the max. What would a car be doing at the same speed around the same corner over that same undulation? Would it be as dramatic or would it be well within its limits and look somewhat sedate? Or would it be going backwards towards the scenery?

By the way, I wouldn't call him talentless, personally, but if that's your opinion then fine.

It does everything to explain how gyroscopic forces help to keep a motorcycle shiny side up even under extreme circumstances.

I think Guy Martin is great but the prevailing view on PH is that he's won nothing (because the TT is the only road race in existence) and he's a crap tv presenter because he has a northern accent. I probably should have put 'talentless'.

[kiseca]

warch said:

kiseca said:

It's a lovely picture of a committed moment but does nothing to explain how well a bike manages those difficulties compared to a car. I see a bike being pushed to the max. What would a car be doing at the same speed around the same corner over that same undulation? Would it be as dramatic or would it be well within its limits and look somewhat sedate? Or would it be going backwards towards the scenery?

By the way, I wouldn't call him talentless, personally, but if that's your opinion then fine.

It does everything to explain how gyroscopic forces help to keep a motorcycle shiny side up even under extreme circumstances.

It really doesn't. Listen, I am interested on a casual level in the challenges that having the wheel and suspension cranked over at 50 degrees provides for trying to keep a tyre in contact with the road when encountering a bump. I stated my opinion that it would seem to be more of a challenge than the amount of suspension travel available, I'm happy to hear from someone who does know.

If you can explain it then great, I'm happy to listen. If not, I'm happy for you to move on and leave room for someone who will.

[RobM77]

warch said:

kiseca said:

It's a lovely picture of a committed moment but does nothing to explain how well a bike manages those difficulties compared to a car. I see a bike being pushed to the max. What would a car be doing at the same speed around the same corner over that same undulation? Would it be as dramatic or would it be well within its limits and look somewhat sedate? Or would it be going backwards towards the scenery?

By the way, I wouldn't call him talentless, personally, but if that's your opinion then fine.

It does everything to explain how gyroscopic forces help to keep a motorcycle shiny side up even under extreme circumstances.

In terms of stability, on a perfectly smooth race track, cranking the bike over for each turn makes perfect sense from a physics point of view, as you mention. However, throw in some bumps and things become much more challenging, as you can see when you watch road racing or bikes at the 'ring; they’re just not as settled as a car and require input not just from the bars, throttle and brakes, but also the rider’s weight. It's just a fundamental difference between being perched up high above two contact patches compared to having a CofG slung low between four. Look how much longer it's taken for robotics to go bipedal; it’s a far more complicated, hazardous and easily perturbed thing to be perched over two contact patches than slung down between four.

[ZX10R NIN]

kiseca said:

It really doesn't. Listen, I am interested on a casual level in the challenges that having the wheel and suspension cranked over at 50 degrees provides for trying to keep a tyre in contact with the road when encountering a bump. I stated my opinion that it would seem to be more of a challenge than the amount of suspension travel available, I'm happy to hear from someone who does know.

If you can explain it then great, I'm happy to listen. If not, I'm happy for you to move on and leave room for someone who will.

Here's an on board of a TT lap with different camera angles & you can see the front & rear suspension at work:

https://youtu.be/xNojOeofO7M

Remember the camera flatens out a lot of the crests/bumps so watch the headstock.

360 lap of the NW200

https://youtu.be/65mGNcmcLAQ

[RobM77]

ZX10R NIN said:

kiseca said:

It really doesn't. Listen, I am interested on a casual level in the challenges that having the wheel and suspension cranked over at 50 degrees provides for trying to keep a tyre in contact with the road when encountering a bump. I stated my opinion that it would seem to be more of a challenge than the amount of suspension travel available, I'm happy to hear from someone who does know.

If you can explain it then great, I'm happy to listen. If not, I'm happy for you to move on and leave room for someone who will.

Here's an on board of a TT lap with different camera angles & you can see the front & rear suspension at work:

https://youtu.be/xNojOeofO7M

Remember the camera flatens out a lot of the crests/bumps so watch the headstock.

360 lap of the NW200

https://youtu.be/65mGNcmcLAQ

I think what kiseca's getting at is that the forces put into the wheel when a motorbike rides over a bump are in a different direction to the suspension movement. If a bike is leaning at 50 degrees to the vertical, then the suspension can only compress and extend in that inclined plane, whereas the bike is encountering surface undulations in the vertical plane.

[anonymous-user]

Has anyone mentioned you can ride around the bumps on a bike (and they do) but you have little choice in a car. I’d say that’s the biggest difference.

[RumbleOfThunder]

wormus said:

Has anyone mentioned you can ride around the bumps on a bike (and they do) but you have little choice in a car. I’d say that’s the biggest difference.

Cars are much less bothered by the bumps, as discussed, as agreed.

[DoubleD]

wormus said:

Has anyone mentioned you can ride around the bumps on a bike (and they do) but you have little choice in a car. I’d say that’s the biggest difference.

You can drive around bumps in a car, you just have to figure out if it costs you time or gains you time.

(Yes some you might not be able to)

[anonymous-user]

DoubleD said:

You can drive around bumps in a car, you just have to figure out if it costs you time or gains you time.

(Yes some you might not be able to)

Except the bike is 18 inches wide and the car is 5 foot wide. Apart from that, yes they are exactly the same.

[anonymous-user]

RumbleOfThunder said:

Cars are much less bothered by the bumps, as discussed, as agreed.

Agreed by whom? A bunch of PH idiots, who’ve never been to the IOM?

No disrespect, just making a general point that many PHers make stuff up.

Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 22 August 19:45

[DoubleD]

wormus said:

DoubleD said:

You can drive around bumps in a car, you just have to figure out if it costs you time or gains you time.

(Yes some you might not be able to)

Except the bike is 18 inches wide and the car is 5 foot wide. Apart from that, yes they are exactly the same.

LOL

I never said that they were exactly the same, I didn't even say that they were similar!

[warch]

wormus said:

DoubleD said:

You can drive around bumps in a car, you just have to figure out if it costs you time or gains you time.

(Yes some you might not be able to)

Except the bike is 18 inches wide and the car is 5 foot wide. Apart from that, yes they are exactly the same.

This is a very important point, as bikers accustomed to Britain's effing terrible potholed roads can attest. Also the bike has so much more room to work with through corners, like driving a car on a 15m wide road.

[RumbleOfThunder]

wormus said:

RumbleOfThunder said:

Cars are much less bothered by the bumps, as discussed, as agreed.

Agreed by whom? A bunch of PH idiots, who’ve never been to the IOM?

No disrespect, just making a general point that many PHers make stuff up.

Edited by wormus on Thursday 22 August 19:45

Cars are so much faster than bikes on every track, road and hillclimb in the world. But not the Manx though.

[rigga]

RumbleOfThunder said:

Cars are so much faster than bikes on every track, road and hillclimb in the world. But not the Manx though.

Correct, currently that is a fact.







And we will still be debating this every year until something really quick gets to have a crack, and apart from promotional exercises like subarus effort, it ain't gonna happen.

[anonymous-user]

rigga said:

Correct, currently that is a fact.







And we will still be debating this every year until something really quick gets to have a crack, and apart from promotional exercises like subarus effort, it ain't gonna happen.

Very true. The cars would take years to catch up. Too slow, ponderous and insignificant for anyone to care in fact.

[CypSIdders]

I'm currently in a tent, in Peel, waiting for the weather to improve so practice for the Classic TT and the Manx GP can get underway properly.

I have a question for you.
How much faster would a bike get around the course if it was afforded the same concessions as the car has been?

What everyone forgets in this thread is, a bike has never had the luxury of doing a lap under the conditions afforded to the car.

Fair's fair, we need a level playing field.

So with a completely empty course, a flying start, no restrictions on exhaust, suspension, tyres, fuel pressure. fuel type, other mods not allowed under TT regs and half a million quid thrown at it, how much faster, than the current lap record, could the bike be?

[GravelBen]

CypSIdders said:

I'm currently in a tent, in Peel, waiting for the weather to improve so practice for the Classic TT and the Manx GP can get underway properly.

I have a question for you.
How much faster would a bike get around the course if it was afforded the same concessions as the car has been?

What everyone forgets in this thread is, a bike has never had the luxury of doing a lap under the conditions afforded to the car.

Fair's fair, we need a level playing field.

So with a completely empty course, a flying start, no restrictions on exhaust, suspension, tyres, fuel pressure. fuel type, other mods not allowed under TT regs and half a million quid thrown at it, how much faster, than the current lap record, could the bike be?

If you want to be consistent, the bike without those restrictions also needs to be made from a production model capable of carrying 5 people and their luggage.

[f1nn]

Cars have more grip, which aids cornering and braking, Bikes have more acceleration and take up physically less space so different cornering lines are available, generally speaking of course.

What this means is that for the vast majority of the time, a car will be quicker around a circuit, all things being as equal as is reasonably possible. This is the sensible answer every time a similar question is asked.

The TT, and perhaps other road based circuits are slightly different, in that the small dimensions of a bike allow series of corners to be linked without sacrificing speed, which allows a higher average speed to be maintained.

Do I think a car could be engineered to match the current TT bike lap record? Absolutely. Do I get my leathers in a twist over it? Not at all, I’d like to see it.

But...unless you’ve ridden a modern sports bike, it would be impossible to understand the “thrill” of riding...Reading some of the comments in this thread it’s clear that a lot of contributors haven’t, which is a shame.

[Hungrymc]

GravelBen said:

If you want to be consistent, the bike without those restrictions also needs to be made from a production model capable of carrying 5 people and their luggage.

I’d say one of the remarkable aspects of this is how close to a bike available at the dealer and that a lot of bikers ride on the road actually are.