IOM TT 2018 Car Lap record run?

[robinh73]

RB Will said:

Welshbeef said:

GroundEffect said:

I didn't mean chicanes, I meant the high speed "threading the needle" style corners that there's tonnes of on the TT. Cars have to give those a bit more consideration simply due to width.

I’ve watched the fast lap of the Suburu and given the speedo was shown the entire time the above doesn’t ring true - or Mark Higgins has a big cock and balls and thought to hell with giving those corners a bit more consideration.

If you could rewatch that video and give the rough times in the video so we can all review and either agree with you or call Bull st it will close that arguements off.

Have asked the bikers to list these sections multiple times before and never get an answer. Personally I think I found 1-2 where Mark had to lift a bit where a bike didn’t as much.
So it’s a possible scenario but so rare that is makes sod all difference to the lap as opposed to the bikers view that the whole course is made up of 100s of these corners which would prevent a car ever getting close.

Need more bikes to put up on board laps with telemetry to make comparisons easier

The Quarry Bends section is one, a left/right series of bends that you ride apex to apex; Coming into the Conker Trees section; The Verandah around the Mountain; Greeba Castle; there are a fair few. I think that the point that is being missed (and will probably continue to be missed) is that were the surface billiard top smooth, then I believe that a car would probably break the lap record. However, in its current guise with far from perfect surface, the sort of car that has the aero, downforce, grip, power etc. to do so, in all reality would not do it. Having spent a huge amount of time racing motorbikes at pure road circuits and also spent the best part of 4 years racing 250 national karts, the difference is massive. It isn't a question of power or the ability really for the car to corner faster, the simple fact is that the surface does not allow the sort of car that could beat the lap record to do so.

[robinh73]

BaronVonVaderham said:

robinh73 said:

It has its moments there for sure, as does any road cicuit, but it definitely lends itself to a 2 wheel lap record rather than 4.

Like every other circuit in existence? Respect to you for having raced there, but pull the other one

No, not like every other circuit in existence, but the Mountain Circuit is not like any other circuit anywhere else in the world.

[stevesingo]

The width of the road is negated by the car's ability to generate more cornering force.

If we say a bike generates about 1g of cornering force, a 100m radius bend would have a max speed of 70mph.

Given that the car is wider, the effective radius will be reduced by about 5m. So if the car did not have down force and was limited to the same 1g of cornering force, it would be limited to 68mph. Slower!

But, a car such as the 919, which will probably develop at least 1.5g at a relatively low speed, will be able to negotiate the same 95m radius at 84mph. Significantly faster.

When we think about faster corners, 150 mph threading the needle, the bike (still limited to about 1g) could negotiate a corner of approx. 455m radius.

A 919 will be generating 3+g of cornering force at such speed. As such the 450m radius corner could be negotiated at 255mph which is excess of the 919's max, so absolutely flat.

Spinning at around, at 3g a 150m radius corner is possible at 150mph. At 1g a 155m radius corner is possible at 88mph.

Even if we have to modify the 919 so much (to account for a few bumps) that we lose 33% of the down force and limit it to 2g we car negotiate the corner at 124mph!

Just to be clear. Even accounting for an extra 2.5m of width of the 919, a corner which a bike takes at 88mph, the 919 will be doing at worst 124mph.

[Welshbeef]

stevesingo said:

The width of the road is negated by the car's ability to generate more cornering force.

If we say a bike generates about 1g of cornering force, a 100m radius bend would have a max speed of 70mph.

Given that the car is wider, the effective radius will be reduced by about 5m. So if the car did not have down force and was limited to the same 1g of cornering force, it would be limited to 68mph. Slower!

But, a car such as the 919, which will probably develop at least 1.5g at a relatively low speed, will be able to negotiate the same 95m radius at 84mph. Significantly faster.

When we think about faster corners, 150 mph threading the needle, the bike (still limited to about 1g) could negotiate a corner of approx. 455m radius.

A 919 will be generating 3+g of cornering force at such speed. As such the 450m radius corner could be negotiated at 255mph which is excess of the 919's max, so absolutely flat.

Spinning at around, at 3g a 150m radius corner is possible at 150mph. At 1g a 155m radius corner is possible at 88mph.

Even if we have to modify the 919 so much (to account for a few bumps) that we lose 33% of the down force and limit it to 2g we car negotiate the corner at 124mph!

Just to be clear. Even accounting for an extra 2.5m of width of the 919, a corner which a bike takes at 88mph, the 919 will be doing at worst 124mph.

Do you have examples of the fastest lap recorded and examples of corners the rider covers at x speed which we could mathematically compare to a car and say this car would be identical to that bikes lap as such any superior car would be monumentally quicker

[anonymous-user]

don't forget though about those magic IOM bumps which render a 4 wheeled vehicle completely incapable of even moving and yet allow an unstable, two wheeled vehicle that relies on leaning to get round a turn to pull their maximum capability continuously........ /sarcasmmode

[anonymous-user]

Max_Torque said:

don't forget though about those magic IOM bumps which render a 4 wheeled vehicle completely incapable of even moving and yet allow an unstable, two wheeled vehicle that relies on leaning to get round a turn to pull their maximum capability continuously........ /sarcasmmode

Perhaps you should read the earlier post from robin (above) ? He’s somebody who races there and actually knows what they are taking about.

Also, why would a 600hp, purpose built car with all its advantages only be able to match a 100hp super twin motorbike ?

Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 26th September 13:23

[stevesingo]

Welshbeef said:

Do you have examples of the fastest lap recorded and examples of corners the rider covers at x speed which we could mathematically compare to a car and say this car would be identical to that bikes lap as such any superior car would be monumentally quicker

Nope. I just did the math.

I suppose I could trawl youtube for on bike/in car footage of same circuits but I CBA.

I also CBA working out the difference in braking performance. Linear deceleration is easy enough, but the deceleration of a car with down force is not linear as down force reduces with speed. Beyond my maths! Suffice to say that if our 150m radius corner is preceded by any length of straight where both vehicles had to brake to their respective cornering speeds, the bike would have to lose an extra 36mph at a rate of deceleration significantly less than a 919.

Using linear deceleration.

150-88 @ 1g takes 190m and 2.8secs
150-124 @ a conservative 2g takes 45m and 0.6sec

When neck and neck at 150mph approaching a 150/155m radius corner the bike would need to brake at least 145m sooner to get to get down to 88mph taking 2.2secs longer!

Edit to add the time difference in the two braking events

Edited by stevesingo on Wednesday 26th September 13:35

[robinh73]

wormus said:

Max_Torque said:

don't forget though about those magic IOM bumps which render a 4 wheeled vehicle completely incapable of even moving and yet allow an unstable, two wheeled vehicle that relies on leaning to get round a turn to pull their maximum capability continuously........ /sarcasmmode

Perhaps you should read the earlier post from robin (above) ? He’s somebody who races there and actually knows what they are taking about.

I too would have thought that my experience of racing there would have counted for something, but clearly not! It would appear that being seated behind a monitor with a keyboard with no actual experience (be it 2 or 4 wheeled) around there counts for more. All very sad and quite tragic really. But I guess it is what makes them tick, keeps their tiny little minds happy and massages egos that are in much need of attention. I will happily take anyone around the Isle of Man circuit for a brisk lap as a pillion should they wish to maybe get an idea of what I am talking about and how uneven the circuit is.

[rigga]

BaronVonVaderham said:

robinh73 said:

It has its moments there for sure, as does any road cicuit, but it definitely lends itself to a 2 wheel lap record rather than 4.

Like every other circuit in existence? Respect to you for having raced there, but pull the other one

As robin73 alluded to, comparing say Donnington as an example, lots of run off, comparatively billiard smooth surface, no blind corners, wide track, compared to the island and all that track has against it, no comparison at all.

[anonymous-user]

Nanook said:

Max must get fed up having to post up his credentials when people tell him he doesn't know what he's talking about.

No I don’t think he does get tired of it. But neither does it qualify him or anyone else as an expert in all things. Many armchair experts on here who confuse what they think should happen with what actually does.

[ZX10R NIN]

robinh73 said:

BaronVonVaderham said:

robinh73 said:

It has its moments there for sure, as does any road cicuit, but it definitely lends itself to a 2 wheel lap record rather than 4.

Like every other circuit in existence? Respect to you for having raced there, but pull the other one

No, not like every other circuit in existence, but the Mountain Circuit is not like any other circuit anywhere else in the world.

Not even close to any other race circuit in fact it's worse as an example we run our bikes stiffer at the NW200 & Ulster GP than we do at the TT, even with a NW200 setup in the bike we're still softer than we would be at a track like Oulton/Brands.

We also use road bikes as the homologation bikes that you can buy are to stiff & then if you brazed the frame like some do your rider would be coming in after 2 laps calling it unrideable & suffering from arm pump.

As for pulling the other one come over to the TT/Manx/Southern100 & I'll take you round on the back then you can see for yourself.

Mark Higgins did a great job with their Time Attack car they spent half a million on the car that was running around 650bhp when they set the record, I was very impressed with the time, professionalism & friendliness they had towards us, there wasn't a time we couldn't have a chat with them & vice versa.

But the fact remains they're time is slower than that of a Supersport 600 & at the time just beat it.

Do I think a 919evo properly setup would beat it, yes I do but not buy as much as you think, Dean Harrison was on for a 136mph lap on the second of the superbike race but clutch slip set in.

The cars width would hamper it through some sections as would the fact they'd be running less downforce as they'd have to let the suspension work which would mean they wouldn't want it grounding out like they do at race tracks, my estimate would be a 142mph lap.

Anyone thinking Subaru didn't give it their all are kidding themselves the amount of people that were there the hierarchy that came over from Japan to see it meant that they were giving it their all.

They brought a car capable of running 700bhp to try & beat the records of bikes running 135/210/235bhp yes the bikes only weigh around 200kgs but 700 horses pushing along 1100kgs is no joke.

Just look at the vehicle you're having to get to beat a modified production bike.

[SonicShadow]

BaronVonVaderham said:

coppice said:

The reality is that the 919 didn't destroy anything , literally or metaphorically. It certainly didn't set a new lap record at Spa or the Ring - lap records are set in races , not even in qualifying - so the best we can say is that it set an unofficial time which no other one off special in a private, traffic free, test session has yet beaten... Amazing speed , but the only thing it can beat is itself.

Clutching at straws much? Call it a circuit record then.

... A record they no longer hold - Vettel, Hamilton, and Raikkonen beat it in qualifying this year.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/138260/vettel-la...

[robinh73]

ZX10R NIN said:

robinh73 said:

BaronVonVaderham said:

robinh73 said:

It has its moments there for sure, as does any road cicuit, but it definitely lends itself to a 2 wheel lap record rather than 4.

Like every other circuit in existence? Respect to you for having raced there, but pull the other one

No, not like every other circuit in existence, but the Mountain Circuit is not like any other circuit anywhere else in the world.

Not even close to any other race circuit in fact it's worse as an example we run our bikes stiffer at the NW200 & Ulster GP than we do at the TT, even with a NW200 setup in the bike we're still softer than we would be at a track like Oulton/Brands.

We also use road bikes as the homologation bikes that you can buy are to stiff & then if you brazed the frame like some do your rider would be coming in after 2 laps calling it unrideable & suffering from arm pump.

As for pulling the other one come over to the TT/Manx/Southern100 & I'll take you round on the back then you can see for yourself.

Mark Higgins did a great job with their Time Attack car they spent half a million on the car that was running around 650bhp when they set the record, I was very impressed with the time, professionalism & friendliness they had towards us, there wasn't a time we couldn't have a chat with them & vice versa.

But the fact remains they're time is slower than that of a Supersport 600 & at the time just beat it.

Do I think a 919evo properly setup would beat it, yes I do but not buy as much as you think, Dean Harrison was on for a 136mph lap on the second of the superbike race but clutch slip set in.

The cars width would hamper it through some sections as would the fact they'd be running less downforce as they'd have to let the suspension work which would mean they wouldn't want it grounding out like they do at race tracks, my estimate would be a 142mph lap.

Anyone thinking Subaru didn't give it their all are kidding themselves the amount of people that were there the hierarchy that came over from Japan to see it meant that they were giving it their all.

They brought a car capable of running 700bhp to try & beat the records of bikes running 135/210/235bhp yes the bikes only weigh around 200kgs but 700 horses pushing along 1100kgs is no joke.

Just look at the vehicle you're having to get to beat a modified production bike.

Exactly this and put better than I could. Setup is so different for the Isle of Man, as has been said here. I found on my superbike that I struggled with the setup at the and ended up happier on a superstock machine, as it was more predictable. The surface and my skill meant I was really up against it on a bike with 200hp+.

[Welshbeef]

ZX10R NIN said:

Not even close to any other race circuit in fact it's worse as an example we run our bikes stiffer at the NW200 & Ulster GP than we do at the TT, even with a NW200 setup in the bike we're still softer than we would be at a track like Oulton/Brands.

We also use road bikes as the homologation bikes that you can buy are to stiff & then if you brazed the frame like some do your rider would be coming in after 2 laps calling it unrideable & suffering from arm pump.

As for pulling the other one come over to the TT/Manx/Southern100 & I'll take you round on the back then you can see for yourself.

Mark Higgins did a great job with their Time Attack car they spent half a million on the car that was running around 650bhp when they set the record, I was very impressed with the time, professionalism & friendliness they had towards us, there wasn't a time we couldn't have a chat with them & vice versa.

But the fact remains they're time is slower than that of a Supersport 600 & at the time just beat it.

Do I think a 919evo properly setup would beat it, yes I do but not buy as much as you think, Dean Harrison was on for a 136mph lap on the second of the superbike race but clutch slip set in.

The cars width would hamper it through some sections as would the fact they'd be running less downforce as they'd have to let the suspension work which would mean they wouldn't want it grounding out like they do at race tracks, my estimate would be a 142mph lap.

Anyone thinking Subaru didn't give it their all are kidding themselves the amount of people that were there the hierarchy that came over from Japan to see it meant that they were giving it their all.

They brought a car capable of running 700bhp to try & beat the records of bikes running 135/210/235bhp yes the bikes only weigh around 200kgs but 700 horses pushing along 1100kgs is no joke.

Just look at the vehicle you're having to get to beat a modified production bike.

It only had two of the three scheduled runs and in the video he does state there was more time to get out of it - how much we will now never know.

I get the impression due to two years and no amark H or anyone even there to try that it’s not even on the table by the organisers OR more importantly the sponsors.
That last run by Mark might be the last time we ever see it as sooner or later TT will be banned.

[robinh73]

Nanook said:

wormus said:

No I don’t think he does get tired of it. But neither does it qualify him or anyone else as an expert in all things. Many armchair experts on here who confuse what they think should happen with what actually does.

Do you disagree with anything he's said though?

Or do you just not like it because it doesn't back up what you would like to be true?

This idea that someone has ridden round there on a bike, therefore is qualified to state that no car could ever go that fast, is a bit silly.

From my own point of view, I have done way more than just "ridden round there on a bike", way more. I also have never stated that "no car could ever go that fast". In fact I openly agree that a car probably would go faster. However, as I have said many times (but completely seems to be overlooked), I don't think that this is possible with the surface there currently. Simple as that and from someone who has more than You Tube/gaming experience of the place. End of.

[anonymous-user]

Welshbeef said:

as sooner or later TT will be banned.

You are aware people have been saying that pretty much since It started? 111 years later, here we are and it’s more popular than ever. Also the rules banning road closures for racing in the U.K. have also been lifted.

Luckily the IOM government doesn’t listen to the collective, misinformed wisdom of PH or U.K. government.

[Weso]

Nanook said:

Max must get fed up having to post up his credentials when people tell him he doesn't know what he's talking about.

I am aware of Max and his experience, but in the same breath there are 2 guys, one who has ridden at the TT and one who works for a team that runs at the TT, who are being roundly ignored by keyboard bashers with zero experience.
Ironic really don't you Think?
Wes

[coppice]

BaronVonVaderham said:

coppice said:

The reality is that the 919 didn't destroy anything , literally or metaphorically. It certainly didn't set a new lap record at Spa or the Ring - lap records are set in races , not even in qualifying - so the best we can say is that it set an unofficial time which no other one off special in a private, traffic free, test session has yet beaten... Amazing speed , but the only thing it can beat is itself.

Clutching at straws much? Call it a circuit record then.

The 919 has lapped faster than the fastest recorded lap time at every circuit it’s been to (apart from brands Indy where they didn’t really try) and it’s clear to anyone that were it allowed a proper crack at the mountain course it would set a new lap/circuit/track record time that would be significantly lower than anything thats been before.

Your straw is my fact . I agree about the 919 IoM potential though , and I suspect there are many less high profile wundercars which would also lap IoM quickly enough to settle this ...errm ..'debate '. Quite way anybody thinks a Time Attack car is the last word in speed has been spending too much time listening to TA's silly self publicity and not enough watching serious racing cars . At my local circuit the best TA car coudn't match a 30 year old Clubman car with a1700 Ford Crossflow...

[anonymous-user]

Weso said:

Nanook said:

Max must get fed up having to post up his credentials when people tell him he doesn't know what he's talking about.

I am aware of Max and his experience, but in the same breath there are 2 guys, one who has ridden at the TT and one who works for a team that runs at the TT, who are being roundly ignored by keyboard bashers with zero experience.
Ironic really don't you Think?
Wes

ok ok, then those two guys can easily then explain to me why a bike can better handle a bumpy road than a car, using real physics formulas and showing their working? or are they sticking too the "you weren't there man, you can't know man" line...... ?




I've been lucky enough to design, develop, calibrate and test vehicles that have won F1, LeMans, WRCs and WTC race event, and i've actually driven (BRC rallying) a fair bit on the IoM, including driving on roads there that are a hell of a lot narrower and bumpier than the main TT course, which isn't actually very rough at all.


The fundamental reason the scooby failed to beat the bikes is because it's a saloon car, and the course is a 'high speed' course. Due to its intrinsic shape a saloon car produces lift (it looks like an aeroplane wing from side on), so to cancel some of that lift and to even given it possibly a fraction of downforce it needs large, "topside" aerodynamic devices, and those mean drag, lots, and lots, and lots of drag. And as aero drag increase with the cube of speed, your 600bhp, which accelerated that car rather well at 'just' 100 mph suddenly is being mostly used to counter the drag. For a bike, with a small front area and no aerodynamic devices, the drag profile is hugely lower, so at speed (>100mph) they can still accelerate well, which is why bikes hit huge top speeds between corners, despite being relatively slow to turn or brake.


I've not run the numbers, but a quick back of the envelop calc suggests a typical 3 box production saloon car would need getting on for 1000bhp to match a bikes power to drag profile.


Of course, that all changes when we move away from saloon cars. A custom sports car like the 919 generates massive downforce from underbody aero, and from low drag devices, which is why it's able to corner at 3g and yet accelerate very hard indeed at high speed. Watch the N'ring footage, the 150 to 200mph accel is just bonkers. Total traction, low drag, massive power.



But hey,lets not let facts get in the way of name calling and willy waving eh..... ;-)

[RemyMartin81D]

Max_Torque said:

ok ok, then those two guys can easily then explain to me why a bike can better handle a bumpy road than a car, using real physics formulas and showing their working? or are they sticking too the "you weren't there man, you can't know man" line...... ?




I've been lucky enough to design, develop, calibrate and test vehicles that have won F1, LeMans, WRCs and WTC race event, and i've actually driven (BRC rallying) a fair bit on the IoM, including driving on roads there that are a hell of a lot narrower and bumpier than the main TT course, which isn't actually very rough at all.


The fundamental reason the scooby failed to beat the bikes is because it's a saloon car, and the course is a 'high speed' course. Due to its intrinsic shape a saloon car produces lift (it looks like an aeroplane wing from side on), so to cancel some of that lift and to even given it possibly a fraction of downforce it needs large, "topside" aerodynamic devices, and those mean drag, lots, and lots, and lots of drag. And as aero drag increase with the cube of speed, your 600bhp, which accelerated that car rather well at 'just' 100 mph suddenly is being mostly used to counter the drag. For a bike, with a small front area and no aerodynamic devices, the drag profile is hugely lower, so at speed (>100mph) they can still accelerate well, which is why bikes hit huge top speeds between corners, despite being relatively slow to turn or brake.


I've not run the numbers, but a quick back of the envelop calc suggests a typical 3 box production saloon car would need getting on for 1000bhp to match a bikes power to drag profile.


Of course, that all changes when we move away from saloon cars. A custom sports car like the 919 generates massive downforce from underbody aero, and from low drag devices, which is why it's able to corner at 3g and yet accelerate very hard indeed at high speed. Watch the N'ring footage, the 150 to 200mph accel is just bonkers. Total traction, low drag, massive power.



But hey,lets not let facts get in the way of name calling and willy waving eh..... ;-)

Almost a trope to see you list your qualifications. None of which detract untils it's done it's hypothetical bullst like everyone else pro or against bikes.

Stick to your electric cars you seems to wk yourself over and name drop as many times as possible.

Basically the engineer version of breadvan.

Knowledgeable but ultimately a complete .

Bye.