RE: Toyota GT86 'Blue Edition' launched
Discussion
Deep Thought said:
Simply because at this stage i'm not seeing any discount listed at the brokers for this new Blue edition. If dealers are selling off the previous edition cheap then thats their prerogative but at this stage theres no discount figures avail for this car.
Dealers may be reluctant to discount this limited edition significantly at this stage.
And likewise, as has been pointed out on other threads in other markets such as Australia and the JDM the GT86 is within perhaps 10% of the price of a Fiesta ST, so the whole "oh we need to charge so much more because its a RWD coupe" doesnt hold water with me frankly.
And those arent cliches by the way - they're valid reasons why a lot of people didnt and dont buy them.
The 370Z has had its issues - the taxation at over £500 a year for so long put a lot of people off, as did the (perceived) fuel economy and being a PCP driven market the really crappy manufacturer PCP deals did it / do it no favours either.
Even IF you could get 10% off this right now today - which i doubt, to me the 370Z GT would be the better buy at a few £s more. Again, not saying thats who everyone should think or that that view is the One True View, but for me as a prospective buyer thats where i would be.
They aren't on broker sites because they aren't on sale yet. It's not just the old special edition being sold cheap, the regular car is discounted by a similar amount. I got £4k off mine a couple of years back and it was one of the earliest MY16 cars (the last year pre facelift with a couple of improvements over previous years). It was built to order, too, not just something they had lying around. At least £3k of discount is easily achievable.Dealers may be reluctant to discount this limited edition significantly at this stage.
And likewise, as has been pointed out on other threads in other markets such as Australia and the JDM the GT86 is within perhaps 10% of the price of a Fiesta ST, so the whole "oh we need to charge so much more because its a RWD coupe" doesnt hold water with me frankly.
And those arent cliches by the way - they're valid reasons why a lot of people didnt and dont buy them.
The 370Z has had its issues - the taxation at over £500 a year for so long put a lot of people off, as did the (perceived) fuel economy and being a PCP driven market the really crappy manufacturer PCP deals did it / do it no favours either.
Even IF you could get 10% off this right now today - which i doubt, to me the 370Z GT would be the better buy at a few £s more. Again, not saying thats who everyone should think or that that view is the One True View, but for me as a prospective buyer thats where i would be.
What are the valid reasons why the Z sells in considerably lower numbers than the GT86? Most of the "valid reasons" people "don't buy" GT86s are actually the reasons that some PHer blinded by bhp and obsessed with soft-touch plastics doesn't want one.
And of course there's a difference in Aus and Japan when comparing the price of a 'local' car with a European one! Toyota is the market leader in both those countries, so has massive economies of scale. It's not shipping a small handful of cars halfway around the world, with the associated costs. Apples and oranges.
Deep Thought said:
And i'll bite... 
Granted the Z is heavier but the sheer power it has overcomes the weight difference by far. Will it be wholly as nimble as a GT86 - no. Will it be a very fast cross country weapon. Yes. Absolutely.
Granted the Z is heavier but the sheer power it has overcomes the weight difference by far. Will it be wholly as nimble as a GT86 - no. Will it be a very fast cross country weapon. Yes. Absolutely.
I've always wanted to like the Z too, but i've never gelled with either model. they feel heavier than the quoted weight, and the ubiquitous M3 seems to make light of its greater mass. Never driven a Nismo though. I wonder if aftermarket suspension would help? They're great value now.
I'm always amused at forum criticism (again, not thinking of you DT, but while i'm here....) because not a single journo who can actually drive has anything but total praise for the 86. But then again, on another thread there are people who clearly have no idea how horsepower, torque and revs work.
All that said, despite being a bespoke platform it probably should be a little cheaper. 24k from broker sounds right.
spikyone said:
Deep Thought said:
Bladedancer said:
I just don't get Toyota's pricing strategy. 370Z starts at just below 30k and as much as I like the GT86 it's nowhere near the Nissan performance-wise.
At 22-24k sure, GT86 makes sense. At 30? You gotta be kidding me.
I'm wholly with you on this however the view on here will be its a different car, Z isnt as good on the limit, GT86 is a better drivers car, etc, etc but the 370Z is a great car in its own right.At 22-24k sure, GT86 makes sense. At 30? You gotta be kidding me.
Like you i'd find it very hard to walk past a 370Z for one, particular as the likes of Broadspeed.com are offering a base 370Z for £24,016, a 370Z GT for £28,816 and a NISMO for £33,046
The GT86 has outsold the Z by around 3:1 despite going on sale 2 years later and being too expensive, not powerful enough, and every other tired PH forum cliche. And yes, a GT86 costs more than getting the same performance from a hot hatch - but it 's a RWD coupe, not a tarted-up mass-market driving school car.
I'd also like to point out how GT86 price crept up over the years.
I think GT86 is a great car and I'd have it over the Z any day of the week because I don't really like Z'd interior or exterior.
LordGrover said:
Define performance. If you're simply comparing stats, obvs - but comparing a fat tourer with a nimble 2+2 coupe? Apples and oranges.
Z isn't a tourer. Infiniti G37 is. Z is meant to be the sports car so comparison with GT86 is valid IMO.otolith said:
Yet nobody buys the Nissan. And the cheapest Audi TT with 180bhp is £27,965.
A big of an exaggeration since I have seen Z's on the road. Also, I nowhere compared GT to the germans who are in a price bracket of their own and if you want to pay for that German badge good riddance to you.All-in-all I think GT86 is a fantastic car and I'm a great fan of it. But I do think 30k is too much for what it is.
So let me reiterate - I'm not criticizing the car but its price tag.
Bladedancer said:
A big of an exaggeration since I have seen Z's on the road. Also, I nowhere compared GT to the germans who are in a price bracket of their own and if you want to pay for that German badge good riddance to you.
All-in-all I think GT86 is a fantastic car and I'm a great fan of it. But I do think 30k is too much for what it is.
So let me reiterate - I'm not criticizing the car but its price tag.
i think Otolith was being ironic All-in-all I think GT86 is a fantastic car and I'm a great fan of it. But I do think 30k is too much for what it is.
So let me reiterate - I'm not criticizing the car but its price tag.
there is a price issue at 30k, i agree. thing is, what price for bespoke chassis? hot hatches are great fun and exceptionally good today. snide comments about shopping trolleys are no longer appropriate or valid, but so much of the package still betrays their underpinnings. Understeer banished and turn-in so very tight, and yet you can sense that the engineering is doing wonders not natural balance. I'm sure i'll be challenged on that point, but it can't be resolved via keyboard. Reading between the lines (not driven it) i sense the i30N has raised the benchmark to a more natural (old school) feel.
You have to go pretty basic to get a sub-30k Caterham, and that's an old design of basic components and questionable quality. No fancy LED indicator patterns there. Still a good way to spend 30k tho.
spikyone said:
They aren't on broker sites because they aren't on sale yet. It's not just the old special edition being sold cheap, the regular car is discounted by a similar amount. I got £4k off mine a couple of years back and it was one of the earliest MY16 cars (the last year pre facelift with a couple of improvements over previous years). It was built to order, too, not just something they had lying around. At least £3k of discount is easily achievable.
What are the valid reasons why the Z sells in considerably lower numbers than the GT86? Most of the "valid reasons" people "don't buy" GT86s are actually the reasons that some PHer blinded by bhp and obsessed with soft-touch plastics doesn't want one.
And of course there's a difference in Aus and Japan when comparing the price of a 'local' car with a European one! Toyota is the market leader in both those countries, so has massive economies of scale. It's not shipping a small handful of cars halfway around the world, with the associated costs. Apples and oranges.
Ok well lets run with your assumption that when it come out, there'll be dealers falling over themselves to sell them at £4,000 off the list price. That makes it £24,980. I'd still prefer the 370Z at £1,000 less after discount but i'd find the extra money for the 370Z GT.What are the valid reasons why the Z sells in considerably lower numbers than the GT86? Most of the "valid reasons" people "don't buy" GT86s are actually the reasons that some PHer blinded by bhp and obsessed with soft-touch plastics doesn't want one.
And of course there's a difference in Aus and Japan when comparing the price of a 'local' car with a European one! Toyota is the market leader in both those countries, so has massive economies of scale. It's not shipping a small handful of cars halfway around the world, with the associated costs. Apples and oranges.
Now - thats my perspective on them. I'm not saying a GT86 was the wrong choice from your perspective.
Also i dont get your belief that people have invalid reasons for not chosing a GT86. The general criticisms of the GT86 are it could do with more power, its expensive and the engine isnt that great. I think those are all perfectly valid criticisms.
As a PHer is it wrong to maybe want a bit more power from it? Is that really so wrong?
Your argument about them being expensive because Toyota are Japanese and they have to ship them here frankly doesnt stack up. Its a unit like any other Toyota that has to be shipped here on the same ferries and the same transporters. I dont see Toyota charging +50% more for a Yaris. Theres no special extra costs in moving a GT86 about.
And i've already said why the 370Z hasnt sold well - highest band road tax charges, fuel economy fears and quite frankly naff finance deals.
Edited by Deep Thought on Friday 1st June 13:11
Bladedancer said:
otolith said:
Yet nobody buys the Nissan. And the cheapest Audi TT with 180bhp is £27,965.
A big of an exaggeration since I have seen Z's on the road. Also, I nowhere compared GT to the germans who are in a price bracket of their own and if you want to pay for that German badge good riddance to you.
As you say, it's a nonsense that a platform shared VAG coupe should sell at a premium just because it's German, but you seem to be supporting that status quo.
CABC said:
i think Otolith was being ironic
there is a price issue at 30k, i agree. thing is, what price for bespoke chassis? hot hatches are great fun and exceptionally good today. snide comments about shopping trolleys are no longer appropriate or valid, but so much of the package still betrays their underpinnings. Understeer banished and turn-in so very tight, and yet you can sense that the engineering is doing wonders not natural balance. I'm sure i'll be challenged on that point, but it can't be resolved via keyboard. Reading between the lines (not driven it) i sense the i30N has raised the benchmark to a more natural (old school) feel.
You have to go pretty basic to get a sub-30k Caterham, and that's an old design of basic components and questionable quality. No fancy LED indicator patterns there. Still a good way to spend 30k tho.
I own an 86.there is a price issue at 30k, i agree. thing is, what price for bespoke chassis? hot hatches are great fun and exceptionally good today. snide comments about shopping trolleys are no longer appropriate or valid, but so much of the package still betrays their underpinnings. Understeer banished and turn-in so very tight, and yet you can sense that the engineering is doing wonders not natural balance. I'm sure i'll be challenged on that point, but it can't be resolved via keyboard. Reading between the lines (not driven it) i sense the i30N has raised the benchmark to a more natural (old school) feel.
You have to go pretty basic to get a sub-30k Caterham, and that's an old design of basic components and questionable quality. No fancy LED indicator patterns there. Still a good way to spend 30k tho.
Can I just say that I don't think there is anything bespoke about the chassis. It's pretty much a recycled Impreza. Everything is stamped Subaru and parts are either from an Impreza or a Forester from the early 2000s.
otolith said:
Yes, an exaggeration, but you can see from the sales figures that the Toyota did better than the Nissan. The Nissan is cheap because hardly anyone wants one otherwise, they're too scared of the running costs.
Ironically, if they'd started life with decent discounts and the more favourable tax regime things might have been a little different. 
Deep Thought said:
Ok well lets run with your assumption that when it come out, there'll be dealers falling over themselves to sell them at £4,000 off the list price. That makes it £24,980. I'd still prefer the 370Z at £1,000 less after discount but i'd find the extra money for the 370Z GT.
Now - thats my perspective on them. I'm not saying a GT86 was the wrong choice from your perspective.
Also i dont get your belief that people have invalid reasons for not chosing a GT86. The general criticisms of the GT86 are it could do with more power, its expensive and the engine isnt that great. I think those are all perfectly valid criticisms.
As a PHer is it wrong to maybe want a bit more power from it? Is that really so wrong?
Your argument about them being expensive because Toyota are Japanese and they have to ship them here frankly doesnt stack up. Its a unit like any other Toyota that has to be shipped here on the same ferries and the same transporters. I dont see Toyota charging +50% more for a Yaris. Theres no special extra costs in moving a GT86 about.
And i've already said why the 370Z hasnt sold well - highest band road tax charges, fuel economy fears and quite frankly naff finance deals.
No dealer will "fall over themselves" to knock off £4k, but going through a broker it's the sort of deal you should be getting. My point is that you started out by quoting the broker price of a 370Z, without considering the broker discounts on a GT86. If you're willing to spend more on the 370Z then all well and good, but either way you need to compare like-for-like prices and equipment, and the GT86 is cheaper.Now - thats my perspective on them. I'm not saying a GT86 was the wrong choice from your perspective.
Also i dont get your belief that people have invalid reasons for not chosing a GT86. The general criticisms of the GT86 are it could do with more power, its expensive and the engine isnt that great. I think those are all perfectly valid criticisms.
As a PHer is it wrong to maybe want a bit more power from it? Is that really so wrong?
Your argument about them being expensive because Toyota are Japanese and they have to ship them here frankly doesnt stack up. Its a unit like any other Toyota that has to be shipped here on the same ferries and the same transporters. I dont see Toyota charging +50% more for a Yaris. Theres no special extra costs in moving a GT86 about.
And i've already said why the 370Z hasnt sold well - highest band road tax charges, fuel economy fears and quite frankly naff finance deals.
I don't think that one person's opinion on which they prefer and why is more valid than another's; we all look for different things in a car. My original (slightly tongue in cheek) comment was that the GT86 sells far better than the Z despite a far worse bhp per £, which PH cliche would have you believe is the be-all and end-all. So it's probably untrue to say that price and power are the "valid reason" "a lot of people don't buy" the GT86 - if that were the case, the Z would sell far better than it does and Toyota would have shifted more than 31 GT86 Primos (at £22.5k list with the same performance and only a few differences in equipment).
The PHers complaining about power probably wouldn't buy a GT86 even if it had 250bhp, and would trot out the other PH cliche that 'you can buy a used Porsche for that money'. It would add very little in terms of sales, and if it were a second model would likely be much more expensive (due to the cost of type approval amongst other things).
Also, I did not say that GT86s are expensive (in the UK) because they're being shipped around the world, I was replying to your comment on relative pricing compared to the Fiesta ST in different markets. One where the GT86 is shipped halfway round the world in small volumes and the Fiesta is built locally in large volumes, and the other where the situation is exactly reversed. Inevitably the GT86 looks expensive here, the Fiesta looks expensive in Australia. It's never going to wipe out the price difference between a ground-up RWD sports car and a mass-market FWD hatch with some performance parts, but it does have some effect.
And naff finance deals applies equally to the GT86 when compared to the usual German suspects. It's another GT86 PH cliche I forgot to include first time round. That must be the full house now, right?
Kenny-as90g said:
Can I just say that I don't think there is anything bespoke about the chassis. It's pretty much a recycled Impreza. Everything is stamped Subaru and parts are either from an Impreza or a Forester from the early 2000s.
Everything is stamped Subaru because it's built in their factory and they did the engineering. Try taking the rear T badge off. That's not an Impreza part, but guess what's stamped on the back? 
spikyone said:
No dealer will "fall over themselves" to knock off £4k, but going through a broker it's the sort of deal you should be getting. My point is that you started out by quoting the broker price of a 370Z, without considering the broker discounts on a GT86. If you're willing to spend more on the 370Z then all well and good, but either way you need to compare like-for-like prices and equipment, and the GT86 is cheaper.
The 370Z is £1,000 cheaper than your hoped for £4K discount off the GT86. If you get a more realistic £3K off then it falls slap bang between the 370Z and the 370Z GT. Pay less but get less spec. Pay more and get more spec. Either way you get a 330BHP 3.7 litre V6 not a 197BHP four pot. You pays your money....spikyone said:
I don't think that one person's opinion on which they prefer and why is more valid than another's; we all look for different things in a car. My original (slightly tongue in cheek) comment was that the GT86 sells far better than the Z despite a far worse bhp per £, which PH cliche would have you believe is the be-all and end-all. So it's probably untrue to say that price and power are the "valid reason" "a lot of people don't buy" the GT86 - if that were the case, the Z would sell far better than it does and Toyota would have shifted more than 31 GT86 Primos (at £22.5k list with the same performance and only a few differences in equipment).
Wholly agree - in fact thats almost verbatim what i put in my post. However you seem to be attacking my view as "wrong" and writing off the common criticisms as "cliches"? Its ok for people not to want to drive the same car as you. Honest! 
And also its not a cliche. Its valid reasoning. Just because lots of people say it, doesnt make it a cliche.
spikyone said:
The PHers complaining about power probably wouldn't buy a GT86 even if it had 250bhp, and would trot out the other PH cliche that 'you can buy a used Porsche for that money'. It would add very little in terms of sales, and if it were a second model would likely be much more expensive (due to the cost of type approval amongst other things).
I dont agree. I think there is wide opinion - not a cliche - that with 250BHP and that price it would be a great buy. 200BHP and that price, not so much.spikyone said:
Also, I did not say that GT86s are expensive (in the UK) because they're being shipped around the world, I was replying to your comment on relative pricing compared to the Fiesta ST in different markets. One where the GT86 is shipped halfway round the world in small volumes and the Fiesta is built locally in large volumes, and the other where the situation is exactly reversed. Inevitably the GT86 looks expensive here, the Fiesta looks expensive in Australia. It's never going to wipe out the price difference between a ground-up RWD sports car and a mass-market FWD hatch with some performance parts, but it does have some effect.
So how come Yaris and Auris arent 50% more expensive than other brands? Given they come on the same ferries and transporters? spikyone said:
And naff finance deals applies equally to the GT86 when compared to the usual German suspects. It's another GT86 PH cliche I forgot to include first time round. That must be the full house now, right?
And again, just because its said by many people, doesnt make it a cliche.Edited by Deep Thought on Friday 1st June 16:36
Edited by Deep Thought on Friday 1st June 16:36
Deep Thought said:
So how come Yaris and Auris arent 50% more expensive than other brands? Given they come on the same ferries and transporters?
Because they don't. Other Toyota cars are built in Europe at Toyota's factories, the gt86 is built in Japan at Subaru's factory then boated over. That makes a difference.Also the drop links aren't off a Corsa C, they just happen to be the same size.
LordGrover said:
Kenny-as90g said:
I own an 86.
Can I just say that I don't think there is anything bespoke about the chassis. It's pretty much a recycled Impreza. Everything is stamped Subaru and parts are either from an Impreza or a Forester from the early 2000s.
Can I just say that I don't think there is anything bespoke about the chassis. It's pretty much a recycled Impreza. Everything is stamped Subaru and parts are either from an Impreza or a Forester from the early 2000s.
b
ks.Then again, the Porsche 924's front end was off a VW 1303, its tranny and rear from the equivalent Transporter T2 and the engine from an LT/Audi 100.
Which proves something, or other.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff