RE: Jean-Marc Gales exits Lotus
Discussion
CABC said:
Lotus heritage is marketing gold.
...for the over-60s with long memories! - Last F1 Championship win? 40 years ago
- Last F1 race win? 30 years ago
- Last Indy 500 win? 50 years ago
- Launch of the Esprit? 40 years ago
- Last featured in a TV series? 50 years ago
- Last featured in a James Bond film? 35 years ago
- Death of Jim Clark? 50 years ago
otolith said:
It's really pitched somewhere between the Cayman and 911, and closer to the 911. But, no, it's not a halo car. They need something above it for that purpose. An Esprit. But they're still going to have the bought-in engine issue.
Does anyone know how many road going cars in Lotus’ history actually had a bespoke lotus designed engine? I’d be curious to know exactly as I can only think of one. Jellinek said:
Does anyone know how many road going cars in Lotus’ history actually had a bespoke lotus designed engine? I’d be curious to know exactly as I can only think of one.
That's tricky, because many of them originated from Coventry-Climax, Ford, Renault, Isuzu, Vauxhall or Toyota (phew!).My guess is the in-house Lotus V8 was a true clean sheet design. The 907/911 series as well, albeit blocks were bought in from Vauxhall.
So far as I am aware transmissions have always been bought-in.
rockin said:
CABC said:
Lotus heritage is marketing gold.
...for the over-60s with long memories! - Last F1 Championship win? 40 years ago
- Last F1 race win? 30 years ago
- Last Indy 500 win? 50 years ago
- Launch of the Esprit? 40 years ago
- Last featured in a TV series? 50 years ago
- Last featured in a James Bond film? 35 years ago
- Death of Jim Clark? 50 years ago
However, in emerging markets they love pedigree. Pretty easy sell when combined with a good product and advertising.
As i said earlier, it only complements quality and dealer support, not replace them.
ks.rockin said:
Jellinek said:
Does anyone know how many road going cars in Lotus’ history actually had a bespoke lotus designed engine? I’d be curious to know exactly as I can only think of one.
That's tricky, because many of them originated from Coventry-Climax, Ford, Renault, Isuzu, Vauxhall or Toyota (phew!).My guess is the in-house Lotus V8 was a true clean sheet design. The 907/911 series as well, albeit blocks were bought in from Vauxhall.
So far as I am aware transmissions have always been bought-in.
Jellinek said:
Thanks for that, interesting stuff. I was not aware the 907/911 originated from a Vauxhall block. They certainly seemed to have had more than their fair share of bed fellows ('bay fellows?) over the years!
Based, if my facts are right, on a Bedford van engine. Chapman took one which was the slant four all steel unit and saw that it would sit low under the feet of the driver so would also sit low in a race car. Lotus took one, fitted a twin cam head and it proved a good unit so Lotus bought the engine designs, recast the block and head in Ally and put twin cams in it, rest is history.At least that's how I remember it, might be off the mark with some detail...
Jellinek said:
Thanks for that, interesting stuff. I was not aware the 907/911 originated from a Vauxhall block. They certainly seemed to have had more than their fair share of bed fellows ('bay fellows?) over the years!
The 907/911 engines were funded by external contracts won by Lotus. The original 2 litre was done for Jensen's new "global" sports car, the Jensen Healey. I've always rather liked them but they're as rare as hens' teeth. Why? Because the Lotus engine was its achilles heel and few were sold. The engine was such a problem that warranty claims combined with a slump in sales pushed Jensen into bankruptcy.Lotus then won a contract with Chrysler who were desperate to put some excitement into their dreary and failing European product. Hence the Sunbeam Lotus came about, with the same engine stroked to 2.2 litres and generally much improved, especially for torque and reliability. It's this engine which provided the starting point for later Esprit Turbo applications.
Turning to the V8, Lotus spent a small fortune developing its engine in the hope of selling it to other manufacturers. They had previously designed the 4-valve OHC engine to adapt Chevy's small-block for Corvette ZR1. That immensely powerful (for its day) and reliable engine was built for GM by Mercury Marine in USA.
One of the problems Lotus has experienced over the years is getting the transmission/driveline of their cars to achieve reliability once engine power is seriously boosted. Early Turbo cars had a Citroen gearbox running at its limits. Later a stronger Renault transaxle was used (from the Alpine/GTA) which again reached its limit, meaning the Lotus Esprit V8 had to be torque restricted. Although I'm less familiar with the latest Toyota V6 installations there are reports of clutch/flywheel issues on the high power cars.
Oilchange said:
Based, if my facts are right, on a Bedford van engine. Chapman took one which was the slant four all steel unit and saw that it would sit low under the feet of the driver so would also sit low in a race car. Lotus took one, fitted a twin cam head and it proved a good unit so Lotus bought the engine designs, recast the block and head in Ally and put twin cams in it, rest is history.
At least that's how I remember it, might be off the mark with some detail...
It still looked like a vauxhall engine tooAt least that's how I remember it, might be off the mark with some detail...
Wasnt it the same in the VX Victor and the droopsnoot
http://www.droopsnoot.co.uk/cars.htm
droopy said:
Overseas cars aside, the thing all these vehicles have in common, and the cornerstone of the Droop Snoot Group, is the Vauxhall 'Slant Four' engine. Developed in the 1960s, the engine first saw the light in the FD Victor, but quickly migrated to the HB Viva GT, starting an association between the slant four and Vauxhall competition and performance cars that was to last until the mid 1980s.
The engine was an oversquare straight four, originally of 1599 or 1975 cc, later upgraded to 1759 or 2279 cc, and developed further in the competition cars to 2500 or 2600 cc using Blydenstein stroker kits. Most slant fours were all iron, single overhead cam with two valves per cylinder; but cross fertilization with Jensen-Healey and the Lotus 900 series engines saw the Lotus LV240 sixteen valve head used on competition cars (and some roadgoing specials), and when the Chevette HS was developed in the mid seventies Bill Blydenstein specified an alloy twin cam, sixteen valve head which was specially developed for the car. There was also an eight valve twin cam project, later abandoned.
Early power outputs, at 80 bhp for the 1599, weren't significantly greater than the pushrod Viva engines, but later engines ran up to 135 bhp on twin Stromberg carburettors, with rally cars up around the 240 bhp typical of the late Group Four era. The real beauty of the engine was its big torque curve, making even the competition cars very flexible and easy to drive compared to more peaky engines such as the Ford BDA and Opel CIH.
The name 'Slant Four' comes from the angle of the engine block, which leans over to the exhaust side at 45 degrees. It's not clear why this is the case - reputedly the engine started life as half a stillborn V8 project, although some say the V8 came later - but it allowed the big banger to fit under fairly low bonnet lines, enabling the swooping 'coke bottle' styling of the HB Viva and FD Victor.
The engine was an oversquare straight four, originally of 1599 or 1975 cc, later upgraded to 1759 or 2279 cc, and developed further in the competition cars to 2500 or 2600 cc using Blydenstein stroker kits. Most slant fours were all iron, single overhead cam with two valves per cylinder; but cross fertilization with Jensen-Healey and the Lotus 900 series engines saw the Lotus LV240 sixteen valve head used on competition cars (and some roadgoing specials), and when the Chevette HS was developed in the mid seventies Bill Blydenstein specified an alloy twin cam, sixteen valve head which was specially developed for the car. There was also an eight valve twin cam project, later abandoned.
Early power outputs, at 80 bhp for the 1599, weren't significantly greater than the pushrod Viva engines, but later engines ran up to 135 bhp on twin Stromberg carburettors, with rally cars up around the 240 bhp typical of the late Group Four era. The real beauty of the engine was its big torque curve, making even the competition cars very flexible and easy to drive compared to more peaky engines such as the Ford BDA and Opel CIH.
The name 'Slant Four' comes from the angle of the engine block, which leans over to the exhaust side at 45 degrees. It's not clear why this is the case - reputedly the engine started life as half a stillborn V8 project, although some say the V8 came later - but it allowed the big banger to fit under fairly low bonnet lines, enabling the swooping 'coke bottle' styling of the HB Viva and FD Victor.
Edited by saaby93 on Wednesday 6th June 23:31
NO! The 907 was not based on a Vauxhall engine. Not at all, not one bit, not a single nut or bolt.
While head development work was underway in the early/mid 1970s, a handful of Vauxhall blocks were purchased simply as test beds for the new twin cam heads as a way of speeding up the test process. These individual blocks were thrown away at the end of development.
Production cars were 100% Lotus engine. Block, crank, pistons, liners, heads, cams - all Lotus.
The 4cyl 900 series engines were fitted to Eclat, Excel and Esprit (although the Esprit was always intended to have a V8 from its 1973 inception).
The M100 engine was a Lotus developed unit badged as Isuzu (both companies were under the GM umbrella at the time).
While head development work was underway in the early/mid 1970s, a handful of Vauxhall blocks were purchased simply as test beds for the new twin cam heads as a way of speeding up the test process. These individual blocks were thrown away at the end of development.
Production cars were 100% Lotus engine. Block, crank, pistons, liners, heads, cams - all Lotus.
The 4cyl 900 series engines were fitted to Eclat, Excel and Esprit (although the Esprit was always intended to have a V8 from its 1973 inception).
The M100 engine was a Lotus developed unit badged as Isuzu (both companies were under the GM umbrella at the time).
DonkeyApple said:
You’re absolutely right. That’s the sadness of the situation. The Lotus brand, the brand that once could better the likes of Ferrari deserves a true halo road car that screams beauty from engineering but deep down we all know that this may never happen again. We all want to see Lotus be great again but we all know that there is no future in making cheap little cars for kids with no money and that the Evora is not the product to push the top end of the market despite just what Gales has managed to achieve. A halo Lotus should not be being compared to a Boxster!!! That highlights everything that has gone wrong over the last 20 years with a single minded business focus on ‘adding cheapness’ and losing all sight of the biggest consumer cultural shift in 70 years.
I agree! Somehow, some way, Lotus needs to produce from the ground up their halo car, i.e., The much needed\or desired revival of the Esprit for beyond modern times... It needs to be as it was when Chapman showed the world the first Esprit; a TRUE supercar a decade or two ahead of the times. Lotus Engineering as I understand is truly one of their best assets, I would love to see what they could pull off and produce without the pressures of financial concerns looming over them and they their creativity and skills. Look what they did in just 27 months building an entirely new engine for the Esprit V8. God knows how great it could have been if not for the restraints of the limited capability of the Esprits mechanics (gearbox) , as well as the fast changing emissions regulations and the such.otolith said:
And all of them turbocharged fours.
More modern than the ageing Jap lump, but will any of them sound better than this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIu4ckN4Lzs
True but Lotus has huge form in using 4 pots to help weight. The whole engine downsizing of the industry as a whole that I’m sure many of us generally lament should have played wonderfully into Lotus’ hands. More modern than the ageing Jap lump, but will any of them sound better than this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIu4ckN4Lzs
It would surprise me if they were ever to bring out a car above the Evora that wasn’t a 4 pot hybrid.
Cold said:
NO! The 907 was not based on a Vauxhall engine. Not at all, not one bit, not a single nut or bolt.
While head development work was underway in the early/mid 1970s, a handful of Vauxhall blocks were purchased simply as test beds for the new twin cam heads as a way of speeding up the test process. These individual blocks were thrown away at the end of development.
Production cars were 100% Lotus engine. Block, crank, pistons, liners, heads, cams - all Lotus.
The 4cyl 900 series engines were fitted to Eclat, Excel and Esprit (although the Esprit was always intended to have a V8 from its 1973 inception).
The M100 engine was a Lotus developed unit badged as Isuzu (both companies were under the GM umbrella at the time).
Amazing to think that Lotus had the resource and business model to develop its own engine at that time, but more the credit to them for doing so. Perhaps the slant 4 design was in anticipation of a V8 development off the same block which would make some sense as I think the DFV started out a 4 and developed into a V8 also?While head development work was underway in the early/mid 1970s, a handful of Vauxhall blocks were purchased simply as test beds for the new twin cam heads as a way of speeding up the test process. These individual blocks were thrown away at the end of development.
Production cars were 100% Lotus engine. Block, crank, pistons, liners, heads, cams - all Lotus.
The 4cyl 900 series engines were fitted to Eclat, Excel and Esprit (although the Esprit was always intended to have a V8 from its 1973 inception).
The M100 engine was a Lotus developed unit badged as Isuzu (both companies were under the GM umbrella at the time).
Yep, sorry if I intimated this, I did say they recast they're own blocks and heads after testing, I just thought that the 'idea' of using a slant four came from Vauxhall. Lotus popped on they own racing heads for testing the race cars as it was really low.
I knew, of course, that the 9xx engines themselves were all Lotus, Vauxhall using Nikasil liners??
I knew, of course, that the 9xx engines themselves were all Lotus, Vauxhall using Nikasil liners??
John145 said:
I don't think any sensible person thinks lotus is genuine competition to Porsche at the moment. A genuine competitor would have customers thinking: do I buy a 911 or Evora...? .
I would think most people who buy Evora’s also considered an 911. I bought an Evora, albeit bottom end of the price range. JOHN145 said:
I don't think any sensible person thinks lotus is genuine competition to Porsche at the moment. A genuine competitor would have customers thinking: do I buy a 911 or Evora...? .
Funny you should mention it as I have often pondered this very dilemma, should I buy a new 911 or Evora? I have always come to the same decision and chosen the Evora. Sadly I have the money for neither nor the garage space.And I consider myself a sensible person.
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