RE: McLaren Senna: Driven

[isaldiri]

RacerMike said:

Although interestingly, a modern GT3 car isn't actually very difficult to drive at all! GT4 cars are significantly harder, and it's why you see less of a lap delta between Pro's and Am's in GT3 than you do in other series. Realistically, a compete AM (admittedly with some interest in racing) can quite happily get within 2s of a Pro drive in British GT or Blancpain which is fairly astonishing given the cornering speeds.

Is there any reason why there's a bigger gap in GT4 vs GT3 am to pro?

And if one looks at the evo Bruno Senna video to the prior year 650 GT3 pole time done by Rob Bell at the same circuit (unless there's a different configuration) it's not 2s but 8-9 seconds.....

[Gandahar]

My tuppence worth

I like PH articles still being a bit TVR after all these years.

I like the fact the UK has produced this car. Also the new Aston with 700bhp

And the fact we can still produce the Bentley SUV that went up Pikes Peak for a picnic.

Still going strong,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FU-tuY0Z7nQ

Edited by Gandahar on Wednesday 27th June 15:04

[RacerMike]

isaldiri said:

RacerMike said:

Although interestingly, a modern GT3 car isn't actually very difficult to drive at all! GT4 cars are significantly harder, and it's why you see less of a lap delta between Pro's and Am's in GT3 than you do in other series. Realistically, a compete AM (admittedly with some interest in racing) can quite happily get within 2s of a Pro drive in British GT or Blancpain which is fairly astonishing given the cornering speeds.

Is there any reason why there's a bigger gap in GT4 vs GT3 am to pro?

And if one looks at the evo Bruno Senna video to the prior year 650 GT3 pole time done by Rob Bell at the same circuit (unless there's a different configuration) it's not 2s but 8-9 seconds.....

Mainly because the GT4 cars are heavier, have less downforce and less freedom on the suspension changes allowed. All of that means that to get the time out of a GT4 car requires a bit more finesse.....somewhere between a full send and smooth but without over driving.

The GT3 cars, with significantly higher downforce and more optimised suspension geometry, tend to respond a lot better to 'go faster and push harder'. It's considerably easier to get an AM driver to go faster than it is to 'drive less aggressively, but maintain speed'.

Edited to add:

You're right...Bell did a 1min36sec in the Balfe Motorsport 650S GT3 last year, and the Senna lap (which looks to be on the limit of the cars abilities) is a 1min47sec. It's precisely this kind of stuff that winds me up about McLaren. Where do they pull the 2s from?!

Edited by RacerMike on Wednesday 27th June 15:27

[BeirutTaxi]

Bruce Wayne would have this car.

[isaldiri]

RacerMike said:

Mainly because the GT4 cars are heavier, have less downforce and less freedom on the suspension changes allowed. All of that means that to get the time out of a GT4 car requires a bit more finesse.....somewhere between a full send and smooth but without over driving.

The GT3 cars, with significantly higher downforce and more optimised suspension geometry, tend to respond a lot better to 'go faster and push harder'. It's considerably easier to get an AM driver to go faster than it is to 'drive less aggressively, but maintain speed'.

Interesting that thanks. I'd always tended to assume the pro/am difference would only get wider as the cars got faster.

[RacerMike]

isaldiri said:

RacerMike said:

Mainly because the GT4 cars are heavier, have less downforce and less freedom on the suspension changes allowed. All of that means that to get the time out of a GT4 car requires a bit more finesse.....somewhere between a full send and smooth but without over driving.

The GT3 cars, with significantly higher downforce and more optimised suspension geometry, tend to respond a lot better to 'go faster and push harder'. It's considerably easier to get an AM driver to go faster than it is to 'drive less aggressively, but maintain speed'.

Interesting that thanks. I'd always tended to assume the pro/am difference would only get wider as the cars got faster.

Goes the other way again once you get to GTE. I've not driven a GTE car, but friends who have say they're a lot more towards the DTM/Single seater style of driving with no considerably edgier dynamic with more downforce than power. That generally means you don't get away with as many mistakes as you do in the GT3 cars. The lack of ABS also makes it tougher for AM drivers to nail the braking as well as they do in a GT3 where you can just smash the pedal as hard as possible at the right moment.

[Maldini35]

RacerMike said:

isaldiri said:

RacerMike said:

Although interestingly, a modern GT3 car isn't actually very difficult to drive at all! GT4 cars are significantly harder, and it's why you see less of a lap delta between Pro's and Am's in GT3 than you do in other series. Realistically, a compete AM (admittedly with some interest in racing) can quite happily get within 2s of a Pro drive in British GT or Blancpain which is fairly astonishing given the cornering speeds.

Is there any reason why there's a bigger gap in GT4 vs GT3 am to pro?

And if one looks at the evo Bruno Senna video to the prior year 650 GT3 pole time done by Rob Bell at the same circuit (unless there's a different configuration) it's not 2s but 8-9 seconds.....

Mainly because the GT4 cars are heavier, have less downforce and less freedom on the suspension changes allowed. All of that means that to get the time out of a GT4 car requires a bit more finesse.....somewhere between a full send and smooth but without over driving.

The GT3 cars, with significantly higher downforce and more optimised suspension geometry, tend to respond a lot better to 'go faster and push harder'. It's considerably easier to get an AM driver to go faster than it is to 'drive less aggressively, but maintain speed'.

Edited to add:

You're right...Bell did a 1min36sec in the Balfe Motorsport 650S GT3 last year, and the Senna lap (which looks to be on the limit of the cars abilities) is a 1min47sec. It's precisely this kind of stuff that winds me up about McLaren. Where do they pull the 2s from?!

Edited by RacerMike on Wednesday 27th June 15:27

Don’t get wound up sir.
The 2 seconds statement in the article is based on the test drivers comparing development laps. As you observed in a previous thread, a lot of the McLaren test drivers are proper racing drivers so they are well placed to judge it. You can’t judge the car based on a lap from Bruno on You Tube. Was he driving as fast as possible? Did he have anybody in the car? Were the tyres knackered? Full fuel tank? Etc. Etc.

Yes, if you remove the air restrictors on a GT3 car it will go faster still, but then it won’t be a GT3 car - it would be exist in the wilderness - not legal for the road and not legal to race. Bit like that new Brabham.

Why the downer on McLaren anyway? I know you work for a rival manufacturer but they’re not really competing brands are they?
Why not just rejoice in another very fast car that by all accounts is great fun to drive?

Edited by Maldini35 on Wednesday 27th June 17:40

[E65Ross]

Don't understand everyone wondering why the buyers of these don't just get a GT3 race car because they're faster.

They may well be faster (on slicks, than the Senna on road tyres). Are they completely forgetting that the Senna is road legal? Or am I missing something?

[Oilchange]

Erm, pardon me but lots on that list isn’t required for an mot. Electric windows, passenger seat nvh, cooling, noselift, satnav...

Maldini35 said:

Yes but to compare apples with apples you would need to add all the other road legal stuff to a GT3 car e.g.
- a passenger seat
- pedestrian impact tests (remove aggressive aero addenda)
- pass emissions regs
- indicators
- electric windows
- NVH considerations (sound deadening, bushes to absorb some vibration etc.)
- cooling, gearbox and brakes that work in traffic without overheating
- nose lift
- sat nav
- climate control

That would lot would slow a GT3 car down a fair bit - especially losing the extreme aero.

I guess we’ll never know but it’s fun to speculate

[GCH]

shortar53 said:

Ummm... can i say it doesnt look awful in these pics without having to close my account on here?

Yep.
It is growing on me too. Orange launch car looked frankly awful. This blue looks better.
Black one looks like a batmobile.


For me though, the white one that Jalopnik tested is the pick of the bunch and suits it very well. I still reckon it would be better without the transparent panels on the door..and the less said about the positioning of the big screen inside the better.

[E65Ross]

Oilchange said:

Erm, pardon me but lots on that list isn’t required for an mot. Electric windows, passenger seat nvh, cooling, noselift, satnav...

Maldini35 said:

Yes but to compare apples with apples you would need to add all the other road legal stuff to a GT3 car e.g.
- a passenger seat
- pedestrian impact tests (remove aggressive aero addenda)
- pass emissions regs
- indicators
- electric windows
- NVH considerations (sound deadening, bushes to absorb some vibration etc.)
- cooling, gearbox and brakes that work in traffic without overheating
- nose lift
- sat nav
- climate control

That would lot would slow a GT3 car down a fair bit - especially losing the extreme aero.

I guess we’ll never know but it’s fun to speculate

No, many of them aren't, but they are pretty much all what someone spending 6 figures on a hyper-fast road car would like.

[br d]

Max_Torque said:

indeed, but being 2s off the pole position in an actual race sees you starting WAY down the grid, and hence your lack of talent is impossibly to hide!

Being 2sec off the ultimate lap time in a Senna on a track where you aren't racing is not just irrelevant, it's very difficult to spot from the passenger seat, meaning you can impress your rich mates with your wheelmanship...... ;-)

I should probably just concentrate on enjoying the Brazil game but really Max you are coming across terribly bitter and immature here.

Why does it matter to you if Senna owners are impressive on the track or what their personal worth is?

This "Loads of money but no talent" nonsense is frankly nauseating.

[Bright Halo]

I really like the look of this in the same way that I liked the Gumpert Apollo.
Bonkers angular design but so different and so good!

[E65Ross]

br d said:

Max_Torque said:

indeed, but being 2s off the pole position in an actual race sees you starting WAY down the grid, and hence your lack of talent is impossibly to hide!

Being 2sec off the ultimate lap time in a Senna on a track where you aren't racing is not just irrelevant, it's very difficult to spot from the passenger seat, meaning you can impress your rich mates with your wheelmanship...... ;-)

I should probably just concentrate on enjoying the Brazil game but really Max you are coming across terribly bitter and immature here.

Why does it matter to you if Senna owners are impressive on the track or what their personal worth is?

This "Loads of money but no talent" nonsense is frankly nauseating.

Indeed, it stinks of jealousy.

Lewis Hamilton would be significantly quicker driving my old heap of a car, does that mean I should have something even slower?

If someone can afford it, they want it, and they enjoy it, who gives a flying fk how quick they are? Most people can't exploit the full capabilities of a VW Polo diesel, but who cares if they have a Polo GTI?

[Olivera]

Quite sad they opted for relatively skinny 245 wide tyres on the front of a track biased hyper car, noticeably washing into understeer at higher speeds as reported by Catchpole.

I guess the alternative of high speed oversteer with most likely a very limited customer at the wheel wasn't an option.

[Kenny Powers]

Yup. Chips and shoulders everywhere.

It’s a common pattern on car forums. Apparently, wealthy people aren’t allowed to just be enthusiasts and have some fun with their money. They have to justify their existence and car purchases to the real enthusiasts

Oh well. Nowt as queer as folk. I’m sure everyone means well really

[Its Just Adz]

Kenny Powers said:

Yup. Chips and shoulders everywhere.

It’s a common pattern on car forums. Apparently, wealthy people aren’t allowed to just be enthusiasts and have some fun with their money. They have to justify their existence and car purchases to the real enthusiasts

Oh well. Nowt as queer as folk. I’m sure everyone means well really

I agree!

People should applaud cars like this being built and sold while they still can.

[RacerMike]

Maldini35 said:

Why the downer on McLaren anyway? I know you work for a rival manufacturer but they’re not really competing brands are they?
Why not just rejoice in another very fast car that by all accounts is great fun to drive?

It's a really good question, and I'm not entirely sure why! I'm obviously not the only one that gets wound up by them and if I was to maybe try and summarise what I find frustrating (that's probably the strongest word I can use) I'd probably say that I don't like the way they seem to market their cars as a sort of 'antithesis' to to the rest of the car industry (previously, particularly Ferrari although this seems to have died down in recent years. It's a little like they claim their cars are solely about their engineering prowess and greatness with no bs marketing at all.

And people, on the whole seem to believe it. The honest reality is though, that they're as marking led as anyone else. There's absolutely nothing wrong with this. They absolutely play on the fact people believe them when they say 'no compromise' and 'fastest road car ever' without any actual backing up of those facts. The reality is, those claims are pretty much as vacuous as Ferrari saying that a car 'plays on the emotion of the great Enzo Ferrari and his search for perfection'. And yet when other companies make fairly technical claims, or lap time comparisons, it's immediately dismissed as rubbish. Why do McLaren seem to get this bizarre free pass on largely unsubstantiated claims?

[2ndclasscitizen]

I 8 a 4RE said:

Why would anyone buy this over a Ferrari / Porsche / McLaren / Audi GT3 car that is about a third of the price and can be run by your local GT racing team?

For the people in this market it's not an either/or purchase, they don't need to choose between this or a GT3 car. If they want a Senna they'll buy a Senna. If they want a GT3 they can get that too.

[DeejRC]

RacerMike said:

Maldini35 said:

Why the downer on McLaren anyway? I know you work for a rival manufacturer but they’re not really competing brands are they?
Why not just rejoice in another very fast car that by all accounts is great fun to drive?

It's a really good question, and I'm not entirely sure why! I'm obviously not the only one that gets wound up by them and if I was to maybe try and summarise what I find frustrating (that's probably the strongest word I can use) I'd probably say that I don't like the way they seem to market their cars as a sort of 'antithesis' to to the rest of the car industry (previously, particularly Ferrari although this seems to have died down in recent years. It's a little like they claim their cars are solely about their engineering prowess and greatness with no bs marketing at all.

And people, on the whole seem to believe it. The honest reality is though, that they're as marking led as anyone else. There's absolutely nothing wrong with this. They absolutely play on the fact people believe them when they say 'no compromise' and 'fastest road car ever' without any actual backing up of those facts. The reality is, those claims are pretty much as vacuous as Ferrari saying that a car 'plays on the emotion of the great Enzo Ferrari and his search for perfection'. And yet when other companies make fairly technical claims, or lap time comparisons, it's immediately dismissed as rubbish. Why do McLaren seem to get this bizarre free pass on largely unsubstantiated claims?

Free pass? Macca??!
They receive more slagging off than Ferrari, Pork and Lambo combined on here! The only other marque that gets the same amount of aggro is Lotus!

Now I do admit that the observations of another month another new Macca and wry comparisons to a new special edition Lotus of some ilk raise a smile with me. I’m also equally happy to accept that said motors are also usually rather impressive in their abilities. Macca rarely seem to make a dud car yet they get a slating every time they release something.

I must miss this free pass lark.