RE: Porsche 919 Evo annihilates Nordschleife record

[paua]

anniesdad said:

coppice said:

And remember that gods like Vic Elford , Brian Redman and Jo Siffert (and Helmut Marko ) were doing 230mph down the Mulsanne in 1970/71 in the 5 litre Flat 12 917 . Not too shabby for the days when a 0-60 under 10 was pretty damn quick !

With their feet in front of the front axle!

And when David Piper ( I think, or it may have been Vic Elford?) said they handled like 10 lbs of horsest in a 5 lbs paper bag.

Edited by paua on Saturday 7th July 05:47

[Welshbeef]

p1stonhead said:

To be fair, motorsport planning is heavily reliant on simulation so if the sim says its possible, it probably is. I bet Porsche got their record on the sim before they took the car to the ring.

And they could simulate the IOM course too

[MC Bodge]

Welshbeef said:

p1stonhead said:

To be fair, motorsport planning is heavily reliant on simulation so if the sim says its possible, it probably is. I bet Porsche got their record on the sim before they took the car to the ring.

And they could simulate the IOM course too

Surely the bumps would destroy the simulation before Bray Hill?

[RacerMike]

p1stonhead said:

thegreenhell said:

crinkleshoes said:

thegreenhell said:

No F1 car has ever set a time on this configuration of the Ring.

I think that after the BMW F1 demo lap a few years ago, the BMW engineers estimated that they could do a 5:15 lap if given the opportunity to really go for it with the 2006 car they used for the demo.

OK... so the F1 car is faster then?

Because, from what I can see... the 5m15s lap included the GP track... whereas this 919 lap did not?

No it isn't because it hasn't ever run a lap to set a time. 5:15 was a theoretical time based on computer simulation. You can't compare a real lap time with a theoretical one, because only one of them has actually happened. For all we know the BMW engineers were just playing Gran Turismo on the Playstation when they came up with that number.

To be fair, motorsport planning is heavily reliant on simulation so if the sim says its possible, it probably is. I bet Porsche got their record on the sim before they took the car to the ring.

I heard from a pretty good source within the industry, they did and it estimated 4:35. However, no sim can take into account the bumps present at the 'Ring. All traditional circuits that LMP1 or F1 cars race on are smooth and homogeneous. The rough estimation based on experience from Porsche had been 5:35, so I'd say they weren't far off with that.

[Vitorio]

RacerMike said:

I heard from a pretty good source within the industry, they did and it estimated 4:35. However, no sim can take into account the bumps present at the 'Ring. All traditional circuits that LMP1 or F1 cars race on are smooth and homogeneous. The rough estimation based on experience from Porsche had been 5:35, so I'd say they weren't far off with that.

Wasnt the ring fully lasescanned? I seem to remember the Forza series of games getting a much better version of the ring since a few years.

Not sure what the scanning res was though, i can imagine scanning every 10cm of track is more then enough for an accurate racing game, but will filter out all the smaller bumps which will ruin your day in a racing car.

[RacerMike]

Vitorio said:

RacerMike said:

I heard from a pretty good source within the industry, they did and it estimated 4:35. However, no sim can take into account the bumps present at the 'Ring. All traditional circuits that LMP1 or F1 cars race on are smooth and homogeneous. The rough estimation based on experience from Porsche had been 5:35, so I'd say they weren't far off with that.

Wasnt the ring fully lasescanned? I seem to remember the Forza series of games getting a much better version of the ring since a few years.

Not sure what the scanning res was though, i can imagine scanning every 10cm of track is more then enough for an accurate racing game, but will filter out all the smaller bumps which will ruin your day in a racing car.

There's a significant difference between the sim's we have access to like rFactor 2 and iRacing, and an actual engineering sim. 'Games' (for want of a better word) aim to recreate the feel of driving and offer wheel to wheel racing, but don't offer a true objective data. There are a lot of fudge factors, and a lap time on a game doesn't really represent a realistic laptime from a car.

The 'sim's' that Porsche and the F1 teams use run powerful real time tyre, aerodynamic and kinematic models on multiple computers, however, due to the non-linear behaviour of tyres, bump rubbers, dampers, bushes etc etc etc, they're only accurate within a fairly specific window. Of course it's possible to have the track simulate the bumps, but the way that the dampers, tyres etc behave in response to this isn't good when you get out of the non linear range. A normal race track with a largely smooth surface, and an assumption that the driver achieves 99% of the ability of the car within this window gives you very repeatable results. A track like the ring, where driver data isn't even available prior to a lap attempt is a bit hit and miss. No one had any way of quantifying any simulation results.....

[otolith]

MC Bodge said:

Welshbeef said:

p1stonhead said:

To be fair, motorsport planning is heavily reliant on simulation so if the sim says its possible, it probably is. I bet Porsche got their record on the sim before they took the car to the ring.

And they could simulate the IOM course too

Surely the bumps would destroy the simulation before Bray Hill?

I heard the simulator uses Ivy Bridge processors and the car couldn't get over them.

[anonymous-user]

anniesdad said:

coppice said:

And remember that gods like Vic Elford , Brian Redman and Jo Siffert (and Helmut Marko ) were doing 230mph down the Mulsanne in 1970/71 in the 5 litre Flat 12 917 . Not too shabby for the days when a 0-60 under 10 was pretty damn quick !

With their feet in front of the front axle!

Completely protected by the huge cage though!

[Kawasicki]

fblm said:

Completely protected by the huge cage though!

That’s quite bonkers...thanks for posting!

[blearyeyedboy]

fblm said:

Completely protected by the huge cage though!

Given the kinetic energy involved in a crash at 230mph, I'm not sure I'd feel secure inside that thing...

[thegreenhell]

fblm said:

Completely protected by the huge cage though!

Yes, that 'huge cage' made from thin-walled alloy tube. In fact, it was so delicate that they pressurised the tubes with nitrogen gas and fitted a pressure gauge in the cockpit so that the driver knew when the chassis had cracked.

Here's what one looked like after a crash

[Kawasicki]

thegreenhell said:

Yes, that 'huge cage' made from thin-walled alloy tube. In fact, it was so delicate that they pressurised the tubes with nitrogen gas and fitted a pressure gauge in the cockpit so that the driver knew when the chassis had cracked.

Here's what one looked like after a crash

I’m amazed that it is aluminium. And the chassis pressure gauge, I do like that idea.

[thegreenhell]

They also experimented with magnesium tube chassis, but never raced them.

[MC Bodge]

thegreenhell said:

Yes, that 'huge cage' made from thin-walled alloy tube. In fact, it was so delicate that they pressurised the tubes with nitrogen gas and fitted a pressure gauge in the cockpit so that the driver knew when the chassis had cracked.

Here's what one looked like after a crash

Is that a road?

[RacerMike]

thegreenhell said:

They also experimented with magnesium tube chassis, but never raced them.

The did indeed....and they did actually race. These were the cars which had pressure gauges linked to critical structural parts of the chassis which were pressurised with gas. During pit stops the engineers would check that none of the gauges had dropped but, if they had, would check by holding a lighter near the joints in the chassis to check for cracks.

https://www.classicdriver.com/en/article/cars/le-m...

[travel is dangerous]

MC Bodge said:

Is that a road?

dunno... could be a bridleway?

[thegreenhell]

MC Bodge said:

Is that a road?

The caption on the photo source was 'VW test track'.

[travel is dangerous]

thegreenhell said:

MC Bodge said:

Is that a road?

The caption on the photo source was 'VW test track'.

you can see an early golf prototype in the background, before they really got the styling right.

[anonymous-user]

thegreenhell said:

Yes, that 'huge cage' made from thin-walled alloy tube...

I was being sarcastic. It's surprising looking at it, that it's even strong enough to support that big old engine, let alone corral all the forces from those tyres

[pardonmyenglish]

p1stonhead said:

I can’t imagine a modern f1 car wouldn’t be faster even with the insane speed of an LMP1?

LMP1 probably has a higher top speed though for the main straight at the end?

I remember F1 reaching 370 KM/H at hockenheim in the late 90s. Pretty sure it could have done the same thing on the ring.