Am I a heretic? I just don't like hot-hatches
Discussion
ToothbrushMan said:
re; GTi/R- you live on the moon.
On the contrary. I drive 300+ miles a day and anytime I see a warm/hot Golf it’s a 5 door hatch GTD or R. I can count on 1 hand how many GTI’s in 3 door guise I’ve seen recently. The Clio RS, ST/RS Focus,Leon Cupra,I30N,Civic R all come in 5 door only. I’d be surprised if VW sold more 3 door versions than 5 whereas years ago it was patently obvious 3 doors were the one to have.I also hankered after the Peugeot 309GTi excitement that I used to have but I found all the modern hot hatches to have too much grip/weight/power that on the typical B Road I am blessed to have in abundance you have to drive at reckless speeds to get the buzz that I used to get from a 1991 Peugeot 1.9GTi with 130bhp.
Do you know what I tried and what instantly gave me back the buzz?
A Toyota GT86.
Raw, you have to thrash it. The engine in peaky, the gearbox slick and precise, it feels fast and slides around at 50/60mph like my old Peugeot did and which a modern hot hatch doesn’t until you’re doing 80/90mph. Mines tuned up to 214bhp with a Fensport exhaust but it’s only modestly quicker than the stock motor.
Less is more.
Do you know what I tried and what instantly gave me back the buzz?
A Toyota GT86.
Raw, you have to thrash it. The engine in peaky, the gearbox slick and precise, it feels fast and slides around at 50/60mph like my old Peugeot did and which a modern hot hatch doesn’t until you’re doing 80/90mph. Mines tuned up to 214bhp with a Fensport exhaust but it’s only modestly quicker than the stock motor.
Less is more.
Hot hatches are great, everyday usable cars with reasonable mpg, but with a good turn of pace and decent handling when the opportunity arises.
In many ways they are better than having a weekend car that gets limited use, where that fantastic drive never really arises but the expense certainly does.
In many ways they are better than having a weekend car that gets limited use, where that fantastic drive never really arises but the expense certainly does.
Same reason I love my E30 M3. Yes, I know it's not fast (by todays standards) but it's still quick enough to be fun, yet slow enough that I won't lose my licence when I get a wriggle on. A country lane, sticky rubber and it's surprising just how much modern stuff fails to stay with it.
Olivera said:
Hot hatches are great, everyday usable cars with reasonable mpg, but with a good turn of pace and decent handling when the opportunity arises.
In many ways they are better than having a weekend car that gets limited use, where that fantastic drive never really arises but the expense certainly does.
Well obviously you everyday car has to be something adequate like a BMW535d. Which I love and has more grip and three times the torque of the GT86 but doesn’t have the fun, the flickability, the snick-snick gearchange and revving out to 7000rpm. Go-karts are fun because they are raw and change direction with the flick of a wrist and you drive them flat out. In many ways they are better than having a weekend car that gets limited use, where that fantastic drive never really arises but the expense certainly does.
I think because performance cars are 99% male purchases we get the 55” telly problem. Blokes are programmed to think bigger is better and more power = more fun. I’ve learned that I don’t want to go fast. I want to go fun. It’s a subtle difference.
If I had to have a hot hatch I don’t think I’d venture an inch further than a Fiesta ST.
zedx19 said:
I'm 38, and drive a 8 year old Focus ST which is tuned. My wife has a 7 seater so my car is mostly just a toy. I could afford something RWD and a proper sports car but I love this oldish hot hatch with an old, dirty Volvo engine. It sounds great, it's full of character and it's great fun to chuck around.
As always it depends what you're comparing it with.I once criticized a 2CV, it's owner was very defensive stating it was a wonderful car - I asked what other cars she'd owned / driven
"none"
V8RX7 said:
zedx19 said:
I'm 38, and drive a 8 year old Focus ST which is tuned. My wife has a 7 seater so my car is mostly just a toy. I could afford something RWD and a proper sports car but I love this oldish hot hatch with an old, dirty Volvo engine. It sounds great, it's full of character and it's great fun to chuck around.
As always it depends what you're comparing it with.I once criticized a 2CV, it's owner was very defensive stating it was a wonderful car - I asked what other cars she'd owned / driven
"none"
If someone is blissfully happy with their Nissan Almera, who am I to point out the superiority of other metal? Just be happy that someone else is happy.
V8RX7 said:
As always it depends what you're comparing it with.
I once criticized a 2CV, it's owner was very defensive stating it was a wonderful car - I asked what other cars she'd owned / driven
"none"
I can compare it directly to numerous cars I've driven and owned. How about a Clio Williams, 306 GTI-6, Clio 16v, Clio 172, Megane R26, Clio 200, Civic Type R, Clio V6, mk5 Golf GTi, R5 GTT to name a few off the top of my head. Out of all them the one that comes closest to the fun the ST delivers is the GTi-6, very close in fact, what a bloody superb car that was that gets very little recognition. Really want to buy that car back but the new owner won't sell it for anyone money, his words.I once criticized a 2CV, it's owner was very defensive stating it was a wonderful car - I asked what other cars she'd owned / driven
"none"
Doesn't really matter what I'm comparing though does it? I smile everytime I drive it which is all that matters surely?
e30m3Mark said:
"E30 M3. "
" Yes, I know it's not fast"
"slow enough that I won't lose my licence when I get a wriggle on"
200 odd HP in something weighing next to fec all is still fast. " Yes, I know it's not fast"
"slow enough that I won't lose my licence when I get a wriggle on"
Push an M3 on making full use of it's grip, handling abilities and performance and it's no wonder modern machinery struggles to keep up.
What's more, if the car struggling to keep up is plod in something unexpected (e.g an unmarked Leon Cupra or Sports-bike) an E30 M3 wiggling on won't just lose its driver their licence it'll put then in the newspaper and have then struggling not to land in jail.
Olivera said:
Hot hatches are great, everyday usable cars with reasonable mpg, but with a good turn of pace and decent handling when the opportunity arises.
In many ways they are better than having a weekend car that gets limited use, where that fantastic drive never really arises but the expense certainly does.
They are really not , believe me. Hot hatches are obviously supremely well developed , very quick and seem to have no downsides. But they really do - they are compromised as they have to do lots of different things , they are often much too big and heavy (whatever the 0-60 time, which adolescents think is the main metric ) , they are ubiquitous and ,ultimately , they are just specced up versions of the car your sister uses to pick up the kids from school . I have never owned or driven one which made driving it for its own sake appealing. In many ways they are better than having a weekend car that gets limited use, where that fantastic drive never really arises but the expense certainly does.
That may be just me , but when I could afford a toy like a Seven I lost interest in hot hatches almost completely. And of course a Golf R would demolish any Seven (or at least any Seven driven by me ) on a wet and/ or bumpy road but so what ? Speed per se is a factor but far from the whole equation. It is about driver involvement , sense of occasion , rawness and lack of electronic safety nets. I've got up at 4am and driven 500 miles in a Seven because I could , and it was unforgettable. In a Type R (etc ) I'd get there quicker, in more comfort , use less fuel and forget the journey within a week ...
coppice said:
Olivera said:
Hot hatches are great, everyday usable cars with reasonable mpg, but with a good turn of pace and decent handling when the opportunity arises.
In many ways they are better than having a weekend car that gets limited use, where that fantastic drive never really arises but the expense certainly does.
They are really not , believe me. Hot hatches are obviously supremely well developed , very quick and seem to have no downsides. But they really do - they are compromised as they have to do lots of different things , they are often much too big and heavy (whatever the 0-60 time, which adolescents think is the main metric ) , they are ubiquitous and ,ultimately , they are just specced up versions of the car your sister uses to pick up the kids from school . I have never owned or driven one which made driving it for its own sake appealing. In many ways they are better than having a weekend car that gets limited use, where that fantastic drive never really arises but the expense certainly does.
That may be just me , but when I could afford a toy like a Seven I lost interest in hot hatches almost completely. And of course a Golf R would demolish any Seven (or at least any Seven driven by me ) on a wet and/ or bumpy road but so what ? Speed per se is a factor but far from the whole equation. It is about driver involvement , sense of occasion , rawness and lack of electronic safety nets. I've got up at 4am and driven 500 miles in a Seven because I could , and it was unforgettable. In a Type R (etc ) I'd get there quicker, in more comfort , use less fuel and forget the journey within a week ...
.Modern hot hatches like most cars flatter the driver which is what most people really want. Having a car that forces them to think, learn and over time raise their game isn't of interest.
Gary C said:
irocfan said:
I find them totally uninspiring to look at.
So what, if they drive well.Looks of a hatch is missing the point. Utility vehicles that drive well what's not to like, good for the run to the tip, and a blast back.
zedx19 said:
Doesn't really matter what I'm comparing though does it? I smile everytime I drive it which is all that matters surely?
I think this is key, I've had some quickish RWD cars(200SX/Z4M/E92 M3/TVR Cerbera) and I loved lighting up the rears and sliding sideways out of every junction I could in those! 
Yet I have a Mini Cooper S currently and everytime I blast down a back road it never fails to make me smile...a lot! The Mini isn't quick and its just a steady Eddie shopping car and wrong wheel drive...but it makes me smile everytime I drive it...and for that reason I love it.
I was out early on Sunday and a guy in a Megane R26 F1 was giving it some beans on the local roundabouts. Looked like he was having a lot of fun.
There is no doubt though that most modern performance cars, whether RWD or FWD are far too capable for the road.
I recently bought a gen 1 Ford Ka for my daughter and whenever I drive it have an absolute ball. Tiny little tyres, low power, low weight, brilliant steering. Its a really excellent urban round-around. In its own way its as much fun as my Mk2 MX5.
I think you just have to like what you like and forget about what other people think.
Nanook said:
Sa Calobra said:
Sorry he's right.
Most drivers without any driver aids would come unstuck very quickly.
I see fast modern hatch drivers as "all the gear no idea"
They want the speed, a sporty car that says they are racey to their friends and family but want it to be safe to drive.
He's not right. If he was, you'd be able to back that up with something, anything at all.Most drivers without any driver aids would come unstuck very quickly.
I see fast modern hatch drivers as "all the gear no idea"
They want the speed, a sporty car that says they are racey to their friends and family but want it to be safe to drive.
Hot hatches are generally bought by people that needs that mix of speed, value, and practicality. They're not bought because they're 'safe to drive'. At least, I've never heard that uttered before, and never seen any evidence that backs it up, other than nonsense internet hyperbole.
And I'm not a FWD hater either, I think the Suzuki Swift sport is a phenomenal car, and would have one in a heart beat if I didn't have enough cars already!
Grab the keys to one of the following 106/306 rallye, Clio Williams/172/182, 205 gti, mk1 Swift Sport etc. And drive it hard on a good B road, if you still can’t find what’s to like then maybe you just don’t enjoy driving.
The newer high powered ones while extremely capable just don’t excite in the same way, less is more with hot hatches.
The newer high powered ones while extremely capable just don’t excite in the same way, less is more with hot hatches.
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