RE: 280mph SSC Tuatara confirmed for Pebble Beach
Discussion
MikeGalos said:
I'm amused by the assumption that this isn't serious. There is an entertaining level of provincialism not normally seen here.
We do very good engineering here in Washington State in the US and SSC is based in the town with the most Ph.D. holders per capita in the US, almost all in engineering, so they have access to some very, very good engineers even by Washington standards. They're also a few hours drive from Boeing's wind tunnels and even closer to the University of Washington/Lamborghini composite materials research and development center.
You might also recall that SSC held the production car top speed world record with the vastly less sophisticated SSC Ultimate Aero back in 2007 with a two-way official run at 256.14mph and held that world record for three years. 256 to 280 isn't that much of a jump for 11 years of R&D.
You might also recall that SSC taking that record away from them is what annoyed Bugatti enough to upgrade the Veyron to play catch up.
If I were Koenigsegg or Bugatti I'd be working on my next generation tweak since I'd be pretty sure I was going to get bumped down a slot. Again.
I wouldn’t be surprised or concerned by the initial reaction.We do very good engineering here in Washington State in the US and SSC is based in the town with the most Ph.D. holders per capita in the US, almost all in engineering, so they have access to some very, very good engineers even by Washington standards. They're also a few hours drive from Boeing's wind tunnels and even closer to the University of Washington/Lamborghini composite materials research and development center.
You might also recall that SSC held the production car top speed world record with the vastly less sophisticated SSC Ultimate Aero back in 2007 with a two-way official run at 256.14mph and held that world record for three years. 256 to 280 isn't that much of a jump for 11 years of R&D.
You might also recall that SSC taking that record away from them is what annoyed Bugatti enough to upgrade the Veyron to play catch up.
If I were Koenigsegg or Bugatti I'd be working on my next generation tweak since I'd be pretty sure I was going to get bumped down a slot. Again.
Edited by MikeGalos on Saturday 11th August 02:33
As you say SSC has some impressive previous form so it’s entirely possible the speed record will be achieved.
Perhaps some of the antipathy is because the definition of ‘production car’ is pretty meaningless.
How many cars need to be built?
If the company merely has the potential to build many but only builds half a dozen then it won’t really feel like a production car.
Will it be Type Approved to be driven and be sold across the world?
Will it have an official warranty? Or just a gentleman’s agreement with the owner?
I don’t know the answers to these questions but then I guess that’s part of the problem.
I wonder if when a Bugatti goes in for a service, the technicians check the diagnostics for the top speed achieved since the previous service? I don't expect many (any?) Have reached Vmax in private ownership.
This is about companies showcasing their engineering skills and using Top Trump maximum speed as a way to sell cars. If SSC do manage to crack it, I don't expect their technicians will be looking at Vmax data at service time, but there will be some owners happy to say they own the world's fastest road car.
But I suspect that it will be their Chiron they park by the superyacht.
This is about companies showcasing their engineering skills and using Top Trump maximum speed as a way to sell cars. If SSC do manage to crack it, I don't expect their technicians will be looking at Vmax data at service time, but there will be some owners happy to say they own the world's fastest road car.
But I suspect that it will be their Chiron they park by the superyacht.
hairyben said:
Without wanting to miss the point of a Hypercar, it seems odd that a feature that no users could ever exploit is being chased so hard. What about a ruthless pursuit of just how light you can build a fully functional supercar, which has obvious speed and handling benefits but also wider application if your say VW group?
There are plenty of cars that do that. But it’s just easier to turn up the turbos for 25% more power rather than reducing the whole car weight by 20% (same power to weight). And when we look at the Alfa 4C, you didn’t ask yourself, why? Why do you need to go to the extent of having no boot and no amendities when a Cayman has no problem having all your creature comforts. If you want an all encompasing track monster of a car, you just get a race car. A Mclaren 650s can am edition without the 500hp limiter would give LMP prototypes a run for their money. No P1 GTR or Laferrari could match its track performance
Maldini35 said:
I wouldn’t be surprised or concerned by the initial reaction.
As you say SSC has some impressive previous form so it’s entirely possible the speed record will be achieved.
Perhaps some of the antipathy is because the definition of ‘production car’ is pretty meaningless.
[…]
...
Perhaps some thought that SSC North America was some new venture capital scam where somebody buys a crate engine and announces they're going to produce the car they drew on a napkin and never delivers an actual running car but that's hardly the case.As you say SSC has some impressive previous form so it’s entirely possible the speed record will be achieved.
Perhaps some of the antipathy is because the definition of ‘production car’ is pretty meaningless.
[…]
...
As I pointed out, SSC North America has been around for 20 years, has produced and delivered 3 versions of their previous car model to customers and held the world record for 3 years while Bugatti developed the SS variant to take back the record.
Top speed requires aerodynamics and horsepower. They've shown they know how to do both and the record hasn't moved up that much from their previous record holder given the years that have passed.
Do they have a dealer in every town? Of course not. But neither do Koenigsegg nor Bugatti.
To put some numbers to it:
Since 2000 there have been 5 new records set (speeds rounded to nearest MPH).
2004 - 241MPH - Koenigsegg CCR
2005 - 254MPH - Bugatti Veyron EB 16.4
2007 - 256MPH - SSC Ultimate Aero TT
2010 - 258MPH - Bugatti Veyron 16.4 Super Sport
2017 - 278MPH - Koenigsegg Agera RS
Four of those models sold 30 cars or less. The only exception being the initial Bugatti which still only sold 300 and even in Bugatti's case they only made 5 of the Super Sport World Record Edition. This is not a measurement of "family cars you can buy from the dealer down the street" for any manufacturer.
Edited by MikeGalos on Sunday 12th August 16:00
As a further bit of trivia, these are the manufacturers whose cars have held the fastest production car record since WWII and the year(s) they took the title.
AC 1965
Aston Martin 1959
Bugatti 2005, 2010
Ferrari 1968
Iso 1963
Jaguar 1949
Koenigsegg 2004, 2017
Lamborghini 1967, 1969, 1982
McLaren 1993
Mercedes-Benz 1955
Porsche 1986
Ruf 1983, 1987
SSC North America 2007
AC 1965
Aston Martin 1959
Bugatti 2005, 2010
Ferrari 1968
Iso 1963
Jaguar 1949
Koenigsegg 2004, 2017
Lamborghini 1967, 1969, 1982
McLaren 1993
Mercedes-Benz 1955
Porsche 1986
Ruf 1983, 1987
SSC North America 2007
Maldini35 said:
[…]
Perhaps some of the antipathy is because the definition of ‘production car’ is pretty meaningless.
To quote Wikipedia's entry on Production Car Speed Record, the standards used are:Perhaps some of the antipathy is because the definition of ‘production car’ is pretty meaningless.
For the purposes of this list, a production car is defined as a vehicle that is:
- Constructed principally for retail sale to consumers, for their personal use, to transport people on public roads (no commercial or industrial vehicles are eligible)
- Available for commercial sale to the public in the same specification as the vehicle used to achieve the record
- Manufactured in the record-claiming specification by a manufacturer whose WMI number is shown on the VIN, including vehicles that are modified by either professional tuners or others that result in a VIN with a WMI number in their name (for example, if a Porsche-based car is remanufactured by RUF and has RUF's WMI W09, it is eligible; but if it has Porsche's WMI, WP0, it is not eligible)
- Pre-1981 vehicles must be made by the original vehicle manufacturer and not modified by either professional tuners or individuals
- Street-legal in its intended markets, having fulfilled the homologation tests or inspections required under either a) United States of America, b) European Union law, or (c) Japan) to be granted this status
- Sold in more than one national market.
F1GTRUeno said:
Thought they’d gone bust
Nope. They're still around after 20 years and are building a new facility in East Richland to expand production. They did have to change their name from Shelby Supercars to SSC North America when Carroll Shelby's family claimed they owned the rights to the word Shelby in automotive markets. (SSC's founder is named Jerod Shelby but is not related)C70R said:
Defensive much, Mike?
The reason for the cynicism is that SSC have "promised" plenty since the original success in 2007, and have delivered precisely squat. What makes you so certain this time?
Seeing that they're one of only 3 manufacturers who have produced cars that set records above 250MPH, I'd say they deserve at least as much credit as anyone else at being able to produce a car that's about 10% faster than one they produced and shipped to customers a decade earlierThe reason for the cynicism is that SSC have "promised" plenty since the original success in 2007, and have delivered precisely squat. What makes you so certain this time?
That's hardly "defensive". That's just expecting acknowledgement of reality rather than ignorant bashing by people who probably never even realized that SSC was the company that sent Volkswagenwerke/Bugatti back to the drawing boards.
MikeGalos said:
C70R said:
Defensive much, Mike?
The reason for the cynicism is that SSC have "promised" plenty since the original success in 2007, and have delivered precisely squat. What makes you so certain this time?
Seeing that they're one of only 3 manufacturers who have produced cars that set records above 250MPH, I'd say they deserve at least as much credit as anyone else at being able to produce a car that's about 10% faster than one they produced and shipped to customers a decade earlierThe reason for the cynicism is that SSC have "promised" plenty since the original success in 2007, and have delivered precisely squat. What makes you so certain this time?
That's hardly "defensive". That's just expecting acknowledgement of reality rather than ignorant bashing by people who probably never even realized that SSC was the company that sent Volkswagenwerke/Bugatti back to the drawing boards.
Of course it's possible to beat Bugatti, but to actually do this it would need to:
- Start at -30degC
- Happily negotiate stop start traffic in Dubai when it's 50deg C whilst successfully maintaining 19deg interior temp
- Deal with a pothole strike at 60mph without snapping a suspension link
- Pass the FMVSS testing for ABS and Stability Control as required by any Type Approved production car
- Have wheel bearings that are genuinely capable of doing VMax and have engineering data to prove it
- Pass the requirements for pedestrian safety
- Offer sufficient side impact protection against a pole strike
- Provide at least class competitive NVH when cruising
- Survive 1 year or 10,000 miles between services
- Have door seals that seal and electric windows that open whether it's -30 or +50
- Pass all 2018 emissions regulations
- Survive an owner bouncing it off the rev limiter for 10mins whilst doing a burnout/donut
- Have a clutch and transmission that can take being launched from stationary at WOT using launch control/max revs for circa 10 times in a row minimum
- Fit shopping and travel cases
- Have a warranty
- Have seats that don't wear thin or sag signifcantly for 3 years minimum
The really impressive thing is that Koenigsegg have actually done all this. They are the only viable company to actually have passed all of the above (and more) with a largely in house design. They still have help from the various automotive consultancies around the world, but when compared to all the others, they stand out. The main reason has been an owner with the dedication and bottomless finances (and understanding that all the boring stuff is what makes a car viable) to stick with it.
If SSC have a viable plan to have large parts of the car outsourced to somewhere like Idiada, RML, Tatuus.....or a.n.other Automotive consultancy (and say £50-100 million) then I think this stands a chance of being fairly robust and realistic. If instead it's akin to the original Ulimate Aero which, correct me if I'm wrong, had it's origins in a Lamborghini Diablo kit car, then I'm struggling to believe it can really compete. OK, it'll go fast and it'll probably be reasonably well put together, but it's going to be along the same lines as the Hennessy Venom or any of the other kit style cars that have claimed similar titles.
Unfortunately, what almost all of these companies fail to understand is that it's the boring stuff that makes a car viable. Not the headline figures.
Edited by RacerMike on Monday 13th August 10:26
RacerMike said:
MikeGalos said:
C70R said:
Defensive much, Mike?
The reason for the cynicism is that SSC have "promised" plenty since the original success in 2007, and have delivered precisely squat. What makes you so certain this time?
Seeing that they're one of only 3 manufacturers who have produced cars that set records above 250MPH, I'd say they deserve at least as much credit as anyone else at being able to produce a car that's about 10% faster than one they produced and shipped to customers a decade earlierThe reason for the cynicism is that SSC have "promised" plenty since the original success in 2007, and have delivered precisely squat. What makes you so certain this time?
That's hardly "defensive". That's just expecting acknowledgement of reality rather than ignorant bashing by people who probably never even realized that SSC was the company that sent Volkswagenwerke/Bugatti back to the drawing boards.
Of course it's possible to beat Bugatti, but to actually do this it would need to:
- Start at -30degC
- Happily negotiate stop start traffic in Dubai when it's 50deg C whilst successfully maintaining 19deg interior temp
- Deal with a pothole strike at 60mph without snapping a suspension link
- Pass the FMVSS testing for ABS and Stability Control as required by any Type Approved production car
- Have wheel bearings that are genuinely capable of doing VMax and have engineering data to prove it
- Pass the requirements for pedestrian safety
- Offer sufficient side impact protection against a pole strike
- Provide at least class competitive NVH when cruising
- Survive 1 year or 10,000 miles between services
- Have door seals that seal and electric windows that open whether it's -30 or +50
- Pass all 2018 emissions regulations
- Survive an owner bouncing it off the rev limiter for 10mins whilst doing a burnout/donut
- Have a clutch and transmission that can take being launched from stationary at WOT using launch control/max revs for circa 10 times in a row minimum
- Fit shopping and travel cases
- Have a warranty
- Have seats that don't wear thin or sag signifcantly for 3 years minimum
The really impressive thing is that Koenigsegg have actually done all this. They are the only viable company to actually have passed all of the above (and more) with a largely in house design. They still have help from the various automotive consultancies around the world, but when compared to all the others, they stand out. The main reason has been an owner with the dedication and bottomless finances (and understanding that all the boring stuff is what makes a car viable) to stick with it.
If SSC have a viable plan to have large parts of the car outsourced to somewhere like Idiada, RML, Tatuus.....or a.n.other Automotive consultancy (and say £50-100 million) then I think this stands a chance of being fairly robust and realistic. If instead it's akin to the original Ulimate Aero which, correct me if I'm wrong, had it's origins in a Lamborghini Diablo kit car, then I'm struggling to believe it can really compete. OK, it'll go fast and it'll probably be reasonably well put together, but it's going to be along the same lines as the Hennessy Venom or any of the other kit style cars that have claimed similar titles.
Unfortunately, what almost all of these companies fail to understand is that it's the boring stuff that makes a car viable. Not the headline figures.
Edited by RacerMike on Monday 13th August 10:26
A one-off special which barely scrapes the definition of "production car" is infinitely less impressive than what the Veyron has achieved.
When you consider that more than 400 Veyrons were produced, and that someone managed to cover over 72,000km of road use in one - the fact that the purpose-built SSC Ultimate could only manage to go 2mph faster is entirely unimpressive, in relative terms. Perhaps it's SSC that need to go "back to the drawing board"?
C70R said:
RacerMike said:
MikeGalos said:
C70R said:
Defensive much, Mike?
The reason for the cynicism is that SSC have "promised" plenty since the original success in 2007, and have delivered precisely squat. What makes you so certain this time?
Seeing that they're one of only 3 manufacturers who have produced cars that set records above 250MPH, I'd say they deserve at least as much credit as anyone else at being able to produce a car that's about 10% faster than one they produced and shipped to customers a decade earlierThe reason for the cynicism is that SSC have "promised" plenty since the original success in 2007, and have delivered precisely squat. What makes you so certain this time?
That's hardly "defensive". That's just expecting acknowledgement of reality rather than ignorant bashing by people who probably never even realized that SSC was the company that sent Volkswagenwerke/Bugatti back to the drawing boards.
Of course it's possible to beat Bugatti, but to actually do this it would need to:
- Start at -30degC
- Happily negotiate stop start traffic in Dubai when it's 50deg C whilst successfully maintaining 19deg interior temp
- Deal with a pothole strike at 60mph without snapping a suspension link
- Pass the FMVSS testing for ABS and Stability Control as required by any Type Approved production car
- Have wheel bearings that are genuinely capable of doing VMax and have engineering data to prove it
- Pass the requirements for pedestrian safety
- Offer sufficient side impact protection against a pole strike
- Provide at least class competitive NVH when cruising
- Survive 1 year or 10,000 miles between services
- Have door seals that seal and electric windows that open whether it's -30 or +50
- Pass all 2018 emissions regulations
- Survive an owner bouncing it off the rev limiter for 10mins whilst doing a burnout/donut
- Have a clutch and transmission that can take being launched from stationary at WOT using launch control/max revs for circa 10 times in a row minimum
- Fit shopping and travel cases
- Have a warranty
- Have seats that don't wear thin or sag signifcantly for 3 years minimum
The really impressive thing is that Koenigsegg have actually done all this. They are the only viable company to actually have passed all of the above (and more) with a largely in house design. They still have help from the various automotive consultancies around the world, but when compared to all the others, they stand out. The main reason has been an owner with the dedication and bottomless finances (and understanding that all the boring stuff is what makes a car viable) to stick with it.
If SSC have a viable plan to have large parts of the car outsourced to somewhere like Idiada, RML, Tatuus.....or a.n.other Automotive consultancy (and say £50-100 million) then I think this stands a chance of being fairly robust and realistic. If instead it's akin to the original Ulimate Aero which, correct me if I'm wrong, had it's origins in a Lamborghini Diablo kit car, then I'm struggling to believe it can really compete. OK, it'll go fast and it'll probably be reasonably well put together, but it's going to be along the same lines as the Hennessy Venom or any of the other kit style cars that have claimed similar titles.
Unfortunately, what almost all of these companies fail to understand is that it's the boring stuff that makes a car viable. Not the headline figures.
Edited by RacerMike on Monday 13th August 10:26
A one-off special which barely scrapes the definition of "production car" is infinitely less impressive than what the Veyron has achieved.
When you consider that more than 400 Veyrons were produced, and that someone managed to cover over 72,000km of road use in one - the fact that the purpose-built SSC Ultimate could only manage to go 2mph faster is entirely unimpressive, in relative terms. Perhaps it's SSC that need to go "back to the drawing board"?
With flashing knobs on.
RacerMike said:
the original Ulimate Aero which, correct me if I'm wrong, had it's origins in a Lamborghini Diablo kit car,
I'm correcting you, you're wrong.As to the rest, you seem to think this is a record for "fastest family car". It isn't. And, for that matter, the postings weren't about things like "Is it easy to drive to get groceries" or "I bet it's air conditioning won't be up to Dubai temperatures", they were about it not being able to make the speed or about the styling or general disparagement of the company.
Any record car has optimization for that record. A car optimized for fuel economy is going to sacrifice performance. A car optimized for rock crawling off-road use is going to sacrifice highway cruising. That's the nature of optimization.
Now, if there's a category for "best compromise" then you're correct and none of the cars that set the top speed records will win.
MikeGalos said:
As to the rest, you seem to think this is a record for "fastest family car". It isn't. And, for that matter, the postings weren't about things like "Is it easy to drive to get groceries" or "I bet it's air conditioning won't be up to Dubai temperatures", they were about it not being able to make the speed or about the styling or general disparagement of the company.
Any record car has optimization for that record. A car optimized for fuel economy is going to sacrifice performance. A car optimized for rock crawling off-road use is going to sacrifice highway cruising. That's the nature of optimization.
You're frothing, and missing the point a bit.Any record car has optimization for that record. A car optimized for fuel economy is going to sacrifice performance. A car optimized for rock crawling off-road use is going to sacrifice highway cruising. That's the nature of optimization.
Any car going that fast is impressive. The fact that a VAG was able to build more than 400 and maintain one of them to over 72,000kms is ludicrously impressive. That, for me, makes the 20-odd garage-queen SSCs pale into insignificance.
This isn't a measure of which is the best car to get groceries. It's an appreciation of the order of magnitude higher a level of engineering required to engineer something which can not only hit those kind of numbers, but *still* be used to get groceries without fuss.
This doesn't make the SSC rubbish. It just brings into sharp focus how much better a car the Veyron is. And I say this as someone who is no huge fan of the big VW...
MikeGalos said:
RacerMike said:
the original Ulimate Aero which, correct me if I'm wrong, had it's origins in a Lamborghini Diablo kit car,
I'm correcting you, you're wrong.As to the rest, you seem to think this is a record for "fastest family car". It isn't. And, for that matter, the postings weren't about things like "Is it easy to drive to get groceries" or "I bet it's air conditioning won't be up to Dubai temperatures", they were about it not being able to make the speed or about the styling or general disparagement of the company.
Any record car has optimization for that record. A car optimized for fuel economy is going to sacrifice performance. A car optimized for rock crawling off-road use is going to sacrifice highway cruising. That's the nature of optimization.
Now, if there's a category for "best compromise" then you're correct and none of the cars that set the top speed records will win.
By calling it a production car most people assume it will have most of these boring deliverables ironed out.
All cars are 'produced' for paying customers after all - be it one-off specials or converted race cars.
The big speed becomes impressive because it can do all the mundane stuff too.
And by mundane I don't mean family car compromised, I mean be able to do a few full bore starts without eating it's clutch, be useable on the road, in traffic, when it's hot, have air conditioning that actually works and won't generally wear out or need a major service every 1000 miles.
If it can't do all this stuff it's just a glorified race car really.
A wonderful thing no doubt but not really a production car.
Edited by Maldini35 on Monday 13th August 16:38
C70R said:
MikeGalos said:
As to the rest, you seem to think this is a record for "fastest family car". It isn't. And, for that matter, the postings weren't about things like "Is it easy to drive to get groceries" or "I bet it's air conditioning won't be up to Dubai temperatures", they were about it not being able to make the speed or about the styling or general disparagement of the company.
Any record car has optimization for that record. A car optimized for fuel economy is going to sacrifice performance. A car optimized for rock crawling off-road use is going to sacrifice highway cruising. That's the nature of optimization.
You're frothing, and missing the point a bit.Any record car has optimization for that record. A car optimized for fuel economy is going to sacrifice performance. A car optimized for rock crawling off-road use is going to sacrifice highway cruising. That's the nature of optimization.
Any car going that fast is impressive. The fact that a VAG was able to build more than 400 and maintain one of them to over 72,000kms is ludicrously impressive. That, for me, makes the 20-odd garage-queen SSCs pale into insignificance.
This isn't a measure of which is the best car to get groceries. It's an appreciation of the order of magnitude higher a level of engineering required to engineer something which can not only hit those kind of numbers, but *still* be used to get groceries without fuss.
This doesn't make the SSC rubbish. It just brings into sharp focus how much better a car the Veyron is. And I say this as someone who is no huge fan of the big VW...
I'd like to see it do well, but to do so, the owners need to approach it with an open mind, and do the job properly. A well engineered car is one that fulfils more than just one role. I hope this is how they've approached it, and it would be nice to see something that isn't just another Hennessey Venom or Keating TKR....
MikeGalos said:
I'm correcting you, and you are wrong
I'm not saying it was a Diablo replica, but everything I've read about the Aero before states that SSC's origins (and the origins of the Aero) were making Diablo replicas, and the Aero was built off this kit. This article would seem to support that https://carbuzz.com/news/boutique-supercars-ssc-tu...CarBuzz said:
but the spaceframe he designed originally for a Lamborghini Diablo replica ended up being adapted for use in the first SSC-badged car. This car was the Aero
There's a listing on this site too http://www.allcarindex.com/main-index/car-make-det... for 'Shelby Custom Exotics' Diablo replicas which was based in Richland, Washington....the same place as SSC. The Aero also had the proportions of a Diablo. I'm not saying there was anything wrong with this, I thought it was always common knowledge, and it certainly moved beyond the replica label.RacerMike said:
The Aero also had the proportions of a Diablo.
That he started business building kit cars is not the same as saying the Aero was built as a kit car any more than saying a Lotus 72 was a product of a kit car maker. As you said, the chassis and engine and body were all developed by Shelby.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff