Is this classed as Undertaking?

[vonhosen]

pingu393 said:

vonhosen said:

pingu393 said:

vonhosen said:

You could enter motorway at Junction 3, pass a vehicle in lane 2 on it's left & then exit at junction 4 having never left lane 1.
That's an overtake on the left.

Would it be legal?

That would depend on the circumstances.

This is the same area, but southbound ( Streetview)

Imagine that I have just joined the motorway at Jct 21a and will be leaving at Jct 21. Lane 1 starts at Jct 21a and ends at Jct 21, so it is possible to enter and exit the motorway without crossing any white lines.
I am in the circle travelling at 70mph and have noticed that the Google Car has been in Lane 2 all the time.
The car in lane 3 is travelling at 70mph and is passing the Google Car which is travelling at 50mph. The truck is doing 56mph and is catching the Google Car. Imagine, also, that the truck is closer to the Google Car than is shown, and I would not be able to safely move in front of it before reaching the Google Car.


View in front of Google Car...


Should I
a) Pass the Google Car using Lane 1 after the Audi has passed it in Lane 3.
b) Slow down to allow the truck to pass me, move from Lane 1 to Lane 3 (and possibly Lane 4), overtake the truck and the Google Car, then move back to Lane 1 before immediately exiting the motorway
c) Slow down to 50mph and keep station with the Google Car until the motorway exit.
d) Something else?


I would probably slow down to around 55mph and pass on the left (but not at the same time as the truck). I don't like sandwiching other cars when I pass them.

Edited by pingu393 on Friday 17th August 01:41

What you are visualising might not be what I'm visualising.
What you see might not be what I see.
I'm not going to tell you what you should do, it's up to you to decide what you are going to do & you are responsible for that choice & outcome.

[silverfoxcc]

IIRC the wording in the HC has been subtly changed

I am not 1005 sure but is used to say something along the lines about passing on the inside

(paraphrased) if the traffic in the outer lanes is moving slower than the inside lane it os ok to pass

Now it says(paraphrased again)

If the traffic in the outer lanes is moving slowly or stopped

Its the slowly or stopped that caught my eye

Otherwise in a world of idiots

The MLM is an old lady in a micra doing 45mph on the M25


due to here lack of confidence the traffic behind her is bscking up in L2 and L3


The traffic in L3 is such that to move from L2 to L3 would make a driver in that lane change course direction or speed,( unless he is one of the few that leaves a gap and doesnt get arsey when you pull into it)


So we now have three lanes

L1 EMPTY
L2 a moving traffic jame at 45mph
L3 Traffic flowing at 45+ due to l2 trying to get into L3 to pass

I am and always have been in L1 caching up Miss Daisy.and i am expected to sit on her tail, for God knows how many miles and not use a completely empty lane, or attempted the L1-L2-L3-L2-L1 change?


Yea watch me, I have the hard shoulder as an escape lane should she awake from her stupor and suddenly swerve into L1

[saaby93]

vonhosen said:

pingu393 said:

Should I
a) Pass the Google Car using Lane 1 after the Audi has passed it in Lane 3.
b) Slow down to allow the truck to pass me, move from Lane 1 to Lane 3 (and possibly Lane 4), overtake the truck and the Google Car, then move back to Lane 1 before immediately exiting the motorway
c) Slow down to 50mph and keep station with the Google Car until the motorway exit.
d) Something else?


I would probably slow down to around 55mph and pass on the left (but not at the same time as the truck). I don't like sandwiching other cars when I pass them.

What you are visualising might not be what I'm visualising.
What you see might not be what I see.
I'm not going to tell you what you should do, it's up to you to decide what you are going to do & you are responsible for that choice & outcome.

Anticipation is the key
Even so, if you had anticipated it, youd have already moved out in front of the truck in readiness to overtake the numpty google car
If you signal right, the truck driver may have anticpated what you were going to do and flash you out
At this stage it may be best to ease off a bit, wait for the truck to come past, then pull out behind it, as it overtakes the numpty

There's no dire need to go up the inside

[Hol]

32Ford29 said:

Todd Bonzalez said:

32Ford29 said:

Why would you not indicate?

When I passed my test about 10 years ago this is what I was taught and what I did on my test (received no infractions). Is it not correct then?

Was not aware that the driving test took you on a Motorway 10years ago.....or are you indeed not correct!

We have the A2 near us, which is a big multi-lane trunk road that becomes the M2 later on.
It was over ten years ago, but i was taught to indicate each and every lane. I was also taught to a move over multiple lanes as separate manoeuvres (separate lanes).

I have done that for years, and I know my eldest boy does the same (at least he does so, when I'm a passenger)..

My youngest has just completed his pass plus, which includes motorway driving, but he hasn't driven me anywhere on a motorway yet, so Ill ask him what 'rules' he was taught to follow.


Personally I think anyone who consciously decides not to indicate their intentions, when its so easy is a few sandwiches short of a picnic..

[saaby93]

Hol said:

We have the A2 near us, which is a big multi-lane trunk road that becomes the M2 later on.
It was over ten years ago, but i was taught to indicate each and every lane. I was also taught to a move over multiple lanes as separate manoeuvres (separate lanes).

I have done that for years, and I know my eldest boy does the same (at least he does so, when I'm a passenger)..

My youngest has just completed his pass plus, which includes motorway driving, but he hasn't driven me anywhere on a motorway yet, so Ill ask him what 'rules' he was taught to follow.


Personally I think anyone who consciously decides not to indicate their intentions, when its so easy is a few sandwiches short of a picnic..

Indicating is great if it's done correctly and usefully, so it's unlikely theres a reason not to do it on a motoway when changing lanes
It can also help keep you alert.

Roundabouts are the worst, you'll get someone signalling left that theyre about to come off the roundabout, but at a couple of exits earlier than the one theyre going to take. If theyre not going to do it correctly, it's best they dont do it at all.

[Toltec]

Prof Prolapse said:

roadsmash said:

Clearly I am saying it’s ridiculous to argue about not indicating because it’s obviously wrong to not indicate. There’s nothing to argue about.

I can’t remember the last time I changed lane without indicating. I indicate all the time.

I don't indicate when returning to the left.

I was always told that you are always returning to the left following an overtake and allowing sufficient distance between you and the "overtakee" to make it unnecessary.

Unless you've fudged it or lack confidence in the distance you've left of course. Which we all do sometimes.

The bold above is kind of the point, you can ignore whether you have just overtaken someone or not, you need to check that the lane you want to move into is clear. An indicator does just that, it indicates your intention, which could be useful to other vehicles around you. Even in your scenario if there is a car catching you in t he lane you currently occupy indicating left lets them know you are moving out of their way so they can plan accordingly.

[Pica-Pica]

Hol said:

32Ford29 said:

Todd Bonzalez said:

[quote=32Ford29
Personally I think anyone who consciously decides not to indicate their intentions, when its so easy is a few sandwiches short of a picnic..

I suppose anyone asking ‘may I have the sauce please, when they are alone’ is OK then?

I only indicate when necessary, or likely to appear, or am turning into a blind road where there may be someone that I cannot see. That does not mean that I am ‘a few sandwiches short of a picnic’, it means I am thinking about my driving. There is a big difference between being too lazy, to indicate, and actually assessing (constantly) the surroundings and deciding not to indicate.

Example, I am going straight over a four-way roundabout with clear vision of all roads, and no road users to benefit, I do not indicate. If there are road users to benefit, I will indicate.

[captain_cynic]

Toltec said:

Prof Prolapse said:

roadsmash said:

Clearly I am saying it’s ridiculous to argue about not indicating because it’s obviously wrong to not indicate. There’s nothing to argue about.

I can’t remember the last time I changed lane without indicating. I indicate all the time.

I don't indicate when returning to the left.

I was always told that you are always returning to the left following an overtake and allowing sufficient distance between you and the "overtakee" to make it unnecessary.

Unless you've fudged it or lack confidence in the distance you've left of course. Which we all do sometimes.

The bold above is kind of the point, you can ignore whether you have just overtaken someone or not, you need to check that the lane you want to move into is clear. An indicator does just that, it indicates your intention, which could be useful to other vehicles around you. Even in your scenario if there is a car catching you in t he lane you currently occupy indicating left lets them know you are moving out of their way so they can plan accordingly.

This.

A competent driver isn't even thinking about if they should indicate, they simply do it, it's almost a subconscious thing and it's helpful to other road users, especially the ones you haven't seen.

I have two rules for an overtake.
1. Find the gap where you're going to re-enter the lane before starting the manoeuvre.
2. Indicate out and indicate back in.

[jfire]

saaby93 said:

ndicating is great if it's done correctly and usefully, so it's unlikely theres a reason not to do it on a motoway when changing lanes
It can also help keep you alert.

Roundabouts are the worst, you'll get someone signalling left that theyre about to come off the roundabout, but at a couple of exits earlier than the one theyre going to take. If theyre not going to do it correctly, it's best they dont do it at all.

They usually don't if it's any consolation.

[pingu393]

captain_cynic said:

A competent driver isn't even thinking about if they should indicate, they simply do it, it's almost a subconscious thing and it's helpful to other road users, especially the ones you haven't seen.

I've never done any IAM learning, but I've heard that they teach that you should only indicate when there is somebody there who will benefit from the indication.

Personally, I agree with the "especially the ones you haven't seen" comment, and that's the reason I indicate all the time.

I've been told their reasoning is to prevent it becoming a subconscious thing, and be something that you always think about.

I'm not sure what the real reason is, or even if any of what I was told is true.

[jfire]

Makes sense in that the focus should be on the presence of other vehicles rather than simply indicating your intentions, whether that's to someone a few metres back in the lane you're pulling in to, or on an empty road.

[Pica-Pica]

pingu393 said:

captain_cynic said:

A competent driver isn't even thinking about if they should indicate, they simply do it, it's almost a subconscious thing and it's helpful to other road users, especially the ones you haven't seen.

I've never done any IAM learning, but I've heard that they teach that you should only indicate when there is somebody there who will benefit from the indication.

Personally, I agree with the "especially the ones you haven't seen" comment, and that's the reason I indicate all the time.

I've been told their reasoning is to prevent it becoming a subconscious thing, and be something that you always think about.

I'm not sure what the real reason is, or even if any of what I was told is true.

By thinking about whether you indicate or not, you are making an observation and assessment of the road users around you (and whether some may appear while you are twiddling the wheel and turning a sharp corner/bend).

[captain_cynic]

pingu393 said:

captain_cynic said:

A competent driver isn't even thinking about if they should indicate, they simply do it, it's almost a subconscious thing and it's helpful to other road users, especially the ones you haven't seen.

I've never done any IAM learning, but I've heard that they teach that you should only indicate when there is somebody there who will benefit from the indication.

Personally, I agree with the "especially the ones you haven't seen" comment, and that's the reason I indicate all the time.

I've been told their reasoning is to prevent it becoming a subconscious thing, and be something that you always think about.

I'm not sure what the real reason is, or even if any of what I was told is true.

I've never been on any IAM courses... But I'd walk straight out and ask for my money back if they said anything that daft.

When to indicate doesn't change based on traffic, condition or anything else. You indicate when you're planning to cross into another line of traffic and if it becomes an automatic reaction then all the better.

I was taught defensive driving from the word go, indicating isn't something you need to waste time thinking about, that time better is spent looking for and evaluating potential hazards.

[swisstoni]

A passenger once poked fun at my indicating when there was nobody about.

But to invoke Donald Rumsfeld for a moment, you don’t know what you don’t know.
You should indicate for the people you might not have noticed.

At the time of course I didn’t have the answer and I questioned myself.

[Todd Bonzalez]

Right, you lot made me question myself so much that I tracked down the advanced driving bloke at work.
He said you DON'T need to indicate when pulling back in.
This is a former police driver who now trains UK OEM advanced courses so hopefully has some idea what he's on about.

[Hol]

saaby93 said:

ndicating is great if it's done correctly and usefully, so it's unlikely theres a reason not to do it on a motoway when changing lanes
It can also help keep you alert.

Roundabouts are the worst, you'll get someone signalling left that theyre about to come off the roundabout, but at a couple of exits earlier than the one theyre going to take.[b[ If theyre not going to do it correctly, it's best they dont do it at all.[/b]

I would suggest that it would be better all round that they were educated to do it properly, rather then excused all culpability.

[Hol]

Todd Bonzalez said:

Right, you lot made me question myself so much that I tracked down the advanced driving bloke at work.
He said you DON'T need to indicate when pulling back in.
This is a former police driver who now trains UK OEM advanced courses so hopefully has some idea what he's on about.

As you have his attention, can ask him if that is his personal opinion, or something more tangible?

[Toltec]

Todd Bonzalez said:

Right, you lot made me question myself so much that I tracked down the advanced driving bloke at work.
He said you DON'T need to indicate when pulling back in.
This is a former police driver who now trains UK OEM advanced courses so hopefully has some idea what he's on about.

You don't NEED to, but sometimes it is a good idea because while other drivers shouldn't pass on the left, sit in your blind spot or fail to indicate right to take that lane you are moving left into, they do.

[captain_cynic]

Toltec said:

Todd Bonzalez said:

Right, you lot made me question myself so much that I tracked down the advanced driving bloke at work.
He said you DON'T need to indicate when pulling back in.
This is a former police driver who now trains UK OEM advanced courses so hopefully has some idea what he's on about.

You don't NEED to, but sometimes it is a good idea because while other drivers shouldn't pass on the left, sit in your blind spot or fail to indicate right to take that lane you are moving left into, they do.

Technically you don't NEED to as failure to indicate isn't an offence here in the UK. Same as overtaking on the left isn't an offence.

Neither will directly result in charges, but neither are a good habit.

[saaby93]

captain_cynic said:

Technically you don't NEED to as failure to indicate isn't an offence here in the UK. Same as overtaking on the left isn't an offence.

Neither will directly result in charges, but neither are a good habit.

Can you include queue jumping in that