Is this classed as Undertaking?

[saaby93]

captain_cynic said:

saaby93 said:

as I said by all means use L1 if its clear but dont use it as a means to push in ahead and force the people in L2 and L3 further back down the queue

As I said, you're not pushing in. You're making progress against people who should have been smart enough to use L1.

why not try it next time at the supermarket or the post office and see what happens
I'm sure no- one would mind being stuck in queue beacause someone else was able to see a clear path alongside, to the front

If youre going to use L1 like that, near enough keep station with those alongside

[Collaudatore]

saaby93 said:

why not try it next time at the supermarket or the post office and see what happens
I'm sure no- one would mind being stuck in queue beacause someone else was able to see a clear path alongside, to the front

If youre going to use L1 like that, near enough keep station with those alongside

I do exactly that.
If I am unlucky enough to have to visit the local supermarket, I get to the checkout area, survey the queues and pick the shortest one.
Often as not I am out before some other people who have been waiting longer.
No-one from another queue has ever said anything to me about this.

[saaby93]

Collaudatore said:

saaby93 said:

why not try it next time at the supermarket or the post office and see what happens
I'm sure no- one would mind being stuck in queue beacause someone else was able to see a clear path alongside, to the front

If youre going to use L1 like that, near enough keep station with those alongside

I do exactly that.
If I am unlucky enough to have to visit the local supermarket, I get to the checkout area, survey the queues and pick the shortest one.
Often as not I am out before some other people who have been waiting longer.
No-one from another queue has ever said anything to me about this.

Thats ok if you dont squeeze from one queue to the other

[captain_cynic]

saaby93 said:

why not try it next time at the supermarket or the post office and see what happens

Someone might tut under their breath but nothing will be done. I live in Britain remember.

But a motorway isn't a queue. You don't get a number when you join and have to stay in that position until you're called like at a doctors office. If I can safely pass someone in L1... They should have been in L1 and it's their loss.

saaby93 said:

If youre going to use L1 like that, near enough keep station with those alongside

If you're going to treat a motorway (or any multi-lane road) like a queue you need to re-evaluate your need to drive (and possibly a few other life choices).

Your analogy only makes sense if there were 3 queues for the same register for people who queue at different speeds... but that isn't the case so your analogy is pointless.

[Collaudatore]

saaby93 said:

Thats ok if you dont squeeze from one queue to the other

I could swap from one queue to another, but join at the end if I think I made the wrong choice, initially. Then there is the inevitable sweating it out to ensure that the switch paid off just like in a car in heavy traffic.

Back On topic.

I think you are talking about a subtly different scenario to the guy you were arguing with earlier.

To continue with the shopping one though, sure I could change queues.
I wouldn't push in before people already in the queue, however if there is someone approaching the queue but hadn't got there yet, I would easily jump in front of him or her. Actually the analogy does work pretty well...

[Collaudatore]

captain_cynic said:

But a motorway isn't a queue.

@ Saaby

And THIS is the point. Just like walking down a path isn't a queue, if someone walks faster than you or I, we do not start walking faster and shouting "Excuse me! There's a queue to get to the end of this path!! Wait until I have reached the end"

[saaby93]

captain_cynic said:

Your analogy only makes sense if there were 3 queues for the same register for people who queue at different speeds... but that isn't the case so your analogy is pointless.

Not really
You get people complaining because lane 2/3 is stuck solid and isnt moving, yet its ok for them to nip to the front in lane 1 and prevent lanes2/3 moving
If they want to make it work move to Lane1 and begin a queue there without jumping ahead, taking some of the traffic from lanes 2 and 3 so everyone gets their fair share of progression

[ferrariF50lover]

Douglas Quaid said:

If you’re in the middle lane you should be able to pull back over to the left lane without indicating at any point. If someone is undertaking and blocking that manoeuvre they’re in the wrong.

Parrots! Dear God, the parrots, they're absoluely everywhere and causing total carnage.

[7heGeneral]

Stu08 said:

7heGeneral said:

Unfortunately it is undertaking. I was doing as you describe with a marked police car behind me thinking i was doing no wrong. It was a 50 mph limit (A road) and I'd stayed on the limit, completely oblivious that they were counting how many cars I'd been undertaking. They had me pull over shortly after I'd moved in to the middle lane (the inside lane was soon going to turn off the main carriageway).

I got lucky that the officers understood that I'd "misunderstood" the rule about staying in the inside lane if it was free so let me off with a warning. Essentially if you are in the inside lane, you are not supposed to pass vehicles in the outside lane(s) unless the other lanes are stationary / coming to a halt.

I'm not sure if I fully understand. You were in a 50 limit in lane 1 (inside lane). You had lanes 2 and 3 to your right, and were travelling at the speed limit past cars in lane 2. Only changing lanes as the layout changed and you had to go into lane 2 or go off on another route?

If I have understood that correctly, why were the police not bothered with the MLM's. I'm not picking holes in anything you've said. Just more surprised they were more bothered by you than people sat in the middle lane.

Edit. I do the exact same as you as I'm fed up with swapping lanes 1-2-3-2-1 everytime I come across a MLM travelling at less than the speed limit.

Edited by Stu08 on Tuesday 14th August 23:03

Yup - I was doing 50 on cruise control in lane 1. lanes 2 and 3 were doing below the limit as I was passing them.

I had the exact same question which I did ask once I'd been let off. The answer I got was essentially "it's easier to stop the 1 guy vs the countless MLM's".

[7heGeneral]

pingu393 said:

7heGeneral said:

Unfortunately it is undertaking. I was doing as you describe with a marked police car behind me thinking i was doing no wrong. It was a 50 mph limit (A road) and I'd stayed on the limit, completely oblivious that they were counting how many cars I'd been undertaking. They had me pull over shortly after I'd moved in to the middle lane (the inside lane was soon going to turn off the main carriageway).

I got lucky that the officers understood that I'd "misunderstood" the rule about staying in the inside lane if it was free so let me off with a warning. Essentially if you are in the inside lane, you are not supposed to pass vehicles in the outside lane(s) unless the other lanes are stationary / coming to a halt .

Rule 268 definitely does not mention the other traffic must be slowing down, or stopping.

I don't claim to know what the rule 268 says lol. I was only explaining what the officers who stopped me had told me. Unfortunately I wasn't brave enough to challenge them and risk getting done for the "dangerous driving" I think they quoted for my undertaking offence.

[Sam993]

jamiehamy said:

djc206 said:

bks.


Rule 103
Signals warn and inform other road users, including pedestrians (see ‘Signals to other road users), of your intended actions. You should always:

-give clear signals in plenty of time, having checked it is not misleading to signal at that time
-use them to advise other road users before changing course or direction, stopping or moving off
-cancel them after use
-make sure your signals will not confuse others. If, for instance, you want to stop after a side road, do not signal until you are passing the road. If you signal earlier it may give the impression that you intend to turn into the road. -Your brake lights will warn traffic behind you that you are slowing down
-use an arm signal to emphasise or reinforce your signal if necessary. Remember that signalling does not give you priority


So clearly any change of course or direction which a lane change is should be accompanied by a signal.

Pair this with

Rule 133
If you need to change lane, first use your mirrors and if necessary take a quick sideways glance to make sure you will not force another road user to change course or speed. When it is safe to do so, signal to indicate your intentions to other road users and when clear, move over.

Clearly nothing - on a motorway or dual carriage way you are expected to return to the left after passing. You should indicate if it provides a benefit to other road users, or as Malcolm said another road user might not expect it. But you do not require to indicate when moving back to the nearside as a default - only if necessary.

"use them to advise other road users before changing course or direction"
"use them to advise other road users before changing course or direction"
"use them to advise other road users before changing course or direction"

There is no IF or BUT it's clear as a freaking whistle

"use them to advise other road users before changing course or direction"

The HC doesn't say, "but if you feel like everyone must know where you're going don't". Those who don't indicate always assume that everyone around them knows where THEY are going. Not realising that there always might be someone who might benefit from the signal and therefore it should always be used when changing course or direction - changing lanes is this.

[vsonix]

Douglas Quaid said:

If you’re in the middle lane you should be able to pull back over to the left lane without indicating at any point. If someone is undertaking and blocking that manoeuvre they’re in the wrong.

er.... surely not indicating would put a person very much in the wrong. ALWAYS SIGNAL YOUR INTENTIONS. MIRROR, SIGNAL, MANOEUVRE.

[Collaudatore]

vsonix said:

Douglas Quaid said:

If you’re in the middle lane you should be able to pull back over to the left lane without indicating at any point. If someone is undertaking and blocking that manoeuvre they’re in the wrong.

er.... surely not indicating would put a person very much in the wrong. ALWAYS SIGNAL YOUR INTENTIONS. MIRROR, SIGNAL, MANOEUVRE.

Generally, if I have just overtaken a slower moving vehicle and am about to return into lane 1, there isn't room for someone to pass me on the left, given that I'd just overtaken someone they'd have had to squeeze into the safe gap I had pulled out before returning to lane 1.

If someone behind is looking twitchy as I am overtaking (one can usually tell by the body language of the car) then I'll indicate my intentions to return to lane 1, then do so. If that nobber has decided that it is a good idea to begin a pass on the left vs someone who is indicating to return left (ie Me) that that's his prerogative. I will return to lane 1 except in the event I will cause a collision.

If there's no-one directly behind me (except the person I have just overtaken) after an overtake, or someone behind who looks to have learned road manners/is leaving a safe gap, I will return to lane 1 without indicating, whilst leaving a safe distance between myself and the vanquished lane 1 slow coach.

Not sure that this is really difficult stuff. A little bit of common sense and courtesy make driving easy.

This thread is getting really heated for something that's quite simple.

[IntriguedUser]

No, however I reckon we are in the minority. Many people make mistakes but seem to think they're doing the correct thing, some deliberate.

So as someone said becsreful as you might wake some idiots up in lane 2 who will then either speed up or change lanes, probably without indication.

[996Keef]

On one of those cops with cameras type shows on itv7 +3 or whatever, the traffic cops were happily dawdling in lane 2 at 50 odd mph . I think they were behind some MLM 3.5t transit dragging down the road obviously overweight.

A vehicle passed them on the inside , maybe doing 65. and the passenger police officer commented on his "undertake"

I guess if they hadn't had bigger fish to fry they'd have pulled him up about it - but it's legal afaik?

[jimmy156]

saaby93 said:

Not really
You get people complaining because lane 2/3 is stuck solid and isnt moving, yet its ok for them to nip to the front in lane 1 and prevent lanes2/3 moving
If they want to make it work move to Lane1 and begin a queue there without jumping ahead, taking some of the traffic from lanes 2 and 3 so everyone gets their fair share of progression

I can't tell if you are being intentionally obtuse...

The only time you would have a point is when Lane 1 is signposted for use to take a particular exit, and will shortly not be part of the same dual carriageway. Even then, when people are queuing two miles or so ahead of the junction I still think its okay to use L1 as long as you merge safely and well before the exit.

In every other scenario, particularly where lanes merge for roadworks etc, all lanes should be used. If you feel people using lane 1 in the scenario are "pushing in" then you are just plain wrong!

"if you want to make it work" drivers should use all lanes to prevent the queue being longer then it needs to be. If people only used lanes 2 and 3, what should be a 2 mile tail back becomes a 3 mile tail back, and causes further congestion at other junctions etc.

[Sam993]

Collaudatore said:

vsonix said:

Douglas Quaid said:

If you’re in the middle lane you should be able to pull back over to the left lane without indicating at any point. If someone is undertaking and blocking that manoeuvre they’re in the wrong.

er.... surely not indicating would put a person very much in the wrong. ALWAYS SIGNAL YOUR INTENTIONS. MIRROR, SIGNAL, MANOEUVRE.

Generally, if I have just overtaken a slower moving vehicle and am about to return into lane 1, there isn't room for someone to pass me on the left, given that I'd just overtaken someone they'd have had to squeeze into the safe gap I had pulled out before returning to lane 1.

If someone behind is looking twitchy as I am overtaking (one can usually tell by the body language of the car) then I'll indicate my intentions to return to lane 1, then do so. If that nobber has decided that it is a good idea to begin a pass on the left vs someone who is indicating to return left (ie Me) that that's his prerogative. I will return to lane 1 except in the event I will cause a collision.

If there's no-one directly behind me (except the person I have just overtaken) after an overtake, or someone behind who looks to have learned road manners/is leaving a safe gap, I will return to lane 1 without indicating, whilst leaving a safe distance between myself and the vanquished lane 1 slow coach.

Not sure that this is really difficult stuff. A little bit of common sense and courtesy make driving easy.

This thread is getting really heated for something that's quite simple.

Where does the HC state that it is allowed please? Nowhere. It states that "you should always (...) use them (indicators) to advise other road users before changing course or direction". It's not open for interpretation.

[jimmy156]

Sam993 said:

Where does the HC state that it is allowed please? Nowhere. It states that "you should always (...) use them (indicators) to advise other road users before changing course or direction". It's not open for interpretation.

The key phrase here being "should" not "must" i.e its not law, its more of a guideline

[Sam993]

jimmy156 said:

Sam993 said:

Where does the HC state that it is allowed please? Nowhere. It states that "you should always (...) use them (indicators) to advise other road users before changing course or direction". It's not open for interpretation.

The key phrase here being "should" not "must" i.e its not law, its more of a guideline

Same applies to undertaking, there's no "must" in the definition. Yet if you read this thread majority claim that it's illegal/not allowed. It can't be either or. Either must makes it a law in all instances and should not. Or it doesn't.

[captain_cynic]

jimmy156 said:

I can't tell if you are being intentionally obtuse...

The only time you would have a point is when Lane 1 is signposted for use to take a particular exit, and will shortly not be part of the same dual carriageway. Even then, when people are queuing two miles or so ahead of the junction I still think its okay to use L1 as long as you merge safely and well before the exit.

Not worth arguing with him. He thinks that motorways are like supermarket queues where you get a number based on the order in which you entered the store and anything other is "pushing in".

As long as you find a spot with sufficient room to safely enter L2, there usually is due to an MLM obliviously doing 10-20 under the speed limit and/or the prevailing traffic, whichever is slower, you're not pushing in or even inconveniencing anyone (the MLM going slow is doing that).