RE: BMW 330i M Sport prototype: Driven
Discussion
cerb4.5lee said:
It doesn't have to be all doom and gloom, and the most smiles I've ever had in a car was in my 200sx and that "only" had a 4cyl turbo engine. 
Sound is a moot point with the N52 because its incredibly muted in the cabin, and its even more quiet from the exhaust because its built to be a refined cruising engine/car. I did appreciate its smoothness and it revved really well for sure, but I personally feel as an engine its a little overrated(much like the S65 in the M3, its a great engine but in the wrong car for me).
Low torque NA engines and heavy cars just don't go well together in my eyes sadly. Stick the N52/S65 in a much lighter car and you're on to an absolute winner!
You've definitely got a point there - I briefly owned a MK2 Golf GTi 16V and it was one of the most entertaining cars I've ever owned!Sound is a moot point with the N52 because its incredibly muted in the cabin, and its even more quiet from the exhaust because its built to be a refined cruising engine/car. I did appreciate its smoothness and it revved really well for sure, but I personally feel as an engine its a little overrated(much like the S65 in the M3, its a great engine but in the wrong car for me).
Low torque NA engines and heavy cars just don't go well together in my eyes sadly. Stick the N52/S65 in a much lighter car and you're on to an absolute winner!
But as for sound from the N52 engine, I'll admit my E91 325i is tragically quiet, over-geared and just too refined for my liking.
Still the 3 litre N52 in my E86 with a custom cat-back system is the complete opposite - loud and proud!
Article said:
While less powerful versions of the car will come with manual gearboxes as standard
Car sounds promising, the refocus makes sense given the models people actually buy. We run a large fleet at work and they’re mostly all 318d and 320d variants without adaptive dampers. Interesting this 330i will be the initial flagship, I remember back from the F30 launch the equivalent 328i was a very competent performer. But back then it was overshadowed by the 335i (which became the 340i).
I’d question the accuracy of the statement I’ve highlighted though, as it seems to contradict what I’ve read elsewhere about BMW phasing out Manual models. Prettty sure the F30 320i went Auto only very recently
cerb4.5lee said:
It doesn't have to be all doom and gloom, and the most smiles I've ever had in a car was in my 200sx and that "only" had a 4cyl turbo engine.
Sound is a moot point with the N52 because its incredibly muted in the cabin, and its even more quiet from the exhaust because its built to be a refined cruising engine/car. I did appreciate its smoothness and it revved really well for sure, but I personally feel as an engine its a little overrated(much like the S65 in the M3, its a great engine but in the wrong car for me).
Low torque NA engines and heavy cars just don't go well together in my eyes sadly. Stick the N52/S65 in a much lighter car and you're on to an absolute winner!
I should’ve been more specific, I also have 2 4 cylinder cars that are far more fun than most 3 series irrespective of their cylinder count, so I’m not a cylinder nazi at all!Sound is a moot point with the N52 because its incredibly muted in the cabin, and its even more quiet from the exhaust because its built to be a refined cruising engine/car. I did appreciate its smoothness and it revved really well for sure, but I personally feel as an engine its a little overrated(much like the S65 in the M3, its a great engine but in the wrong car for me).
Low torque NA engines and heavy cars just don't go well together in my eyes sadly. Stick the N52/S65 in a much lighter car and you're on to an absolute winner!
The 3 series is ostensibly a dull and heavy car, but what made me choose a 330i e91 over anything else suitable for family cruising duties was the straight six engine with its smooth character and lovely (albeit not that loud) sound - it reminded me of my late fathers e28 M535i and that’s what makes me smile every time I floor it in it. I like things that need revving too.
If it had just another 4 cylinder turbo then it’s lost the main thing that differentiates it from every other dull saloon or estate car and thus loses its character.
Anyway this whole discussion is moot as apparently BMW are now misbadging their own cars as there is still a 6 cylinder non M 3 series available in the form of the 340i, which is what I’d replace my venerable 330i with when the time comes
Everyone likes different things etc. I personally miss the interaction of a manual 'box and discount autos in anything remotely interesting.
The Giulia is not a bad old bus though.
Henry Catchpole did a piece on why manuals matter and I agree with all of it:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v...
The Giulia is not a bad old bus though.
Henry Catchpole did a piece on why manuals matter and I agree with all of it:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v...
Edited by SidewaysSi on Friday 17th August 08:31
Plate spinner said:
Ares said:
It's not. Go and drive a modern car with a manual, then the same car with a good auto, the auto is just factually better. It might not stir the emotion or halcyon memories, but they are better.
The auto is ‘factually better’ at what exactly?Jeez, we get it, you like ‘em... but please accept that some people just don’t.
nickfrog said:
Ares said:
The fact that a niche of car beards lament the demise of manual gearboxes meaning that the 5-8yr old car they buy for 50p and a cocker (in 5-8yrs time) will likely be an auto is of minimal concern to said manufacturers, who will assume the afore mentioned beards will find some other archaic technology to w
k over. 
k over. You're actually very close to the mark. They are enthusiasts though...apparently.
Plate spinner said:
Ares said:
It's not. Go and drive a modern car with a manual, then the same car with a good auto, the auto is just factually better. It might not stir the emotion or halcyon memories, but they are better.
The auto is ‘factually better’ at what exactly?Jeez, we get it, you like ‘em... but please accept that some people just don’t.
But as I said, that won't combat the emotion (which is not factual, it's subjective), which is where preference comes in. You can still prefer something that it technically inferior, and perhaps even prefer it BECAUSE it is technically inferior.
SidewaysSi said:
See link above.
Yes and it's interesting like loads of his stuff. I do prefer a manual too for those reasons but I wouldn't dream of ostracising anyone as a non-enthusiast just because they enjoy an auto, particularly when the assumption comes from road only drivers with massively "disconnected" cars.nickfrog said:
SidewaysSi said:
See link above.
Yes and it's interesting like loads of his stuff. I do prefer a manual too for those reasons but I wouldn't dream of ostracising anyone as a non-enthusiast just because they enjoy an auto, particularly when the assumption comes from road only drivers with massively "disconnected" cars.nickfrog said:
Yes and it's interesting like loads of his stuff. I do prefer a manual too for those reasons but I wouldn't dream of ostracising anyone as a non-enthusiast just because they enjoy an auto, particularly when the assumption comes from road only drivers with massively "disconnected" cars.
I don't think anyone has been? As far as I can see the complaint has just been that there isn't a manual offered on the more powerful models; no-one is saying there shouldn't be an auto or that it's wrong to want an auto. Having said that, if we reckon 20% of enthusiasts prefer a manual in this sort of car and enthusiasts make up 5% of customers; that's a vanishingly small number of actual sales so you can certainly see why they don't bother.
SidewaysSi said:
nickfrog said:
SidewaysSi said:
See link above.
Yes and it's interesting like loads of his stuff. I do prefer a manual too for those reasons but I wouldn't dream of ostracising anyone as a non-enthusiast just because they enjoy an auto, particularly when the assumption comes from road only drivers with massively "disconnected" cars.It will be a very good car. Well put together, decent looking, very nice to drive, utterly unmemorable. It will blend seamlessly into the roadscape , not annoy you and will be seen en masse at a British Car Auctions near you in 2022 complete with kerbed/corroded alloys with tatty centre caps. Just after launch you will be able to purchase tri colour BMW grille wker stripe kits and in 2024 the first one will be seen, tastefully* modded by some tattooed vaping 25 year old clown shoe. There will be talk of timing chain problems as it makes its slow descent into used car oblivion.
That's how the 3 Series goes isn't it?
See also: BMW G30
ker stripe kits and in 2024 the first one will be seen, tastefully* modded by some tattooed vaping 25 year old clown shoe. There will be talk of timing chain problems as it makes its slow descent into used car oblivion.That's how the 3 Series goes isn't it?
See also: BMW G30
Ares said:
With respect, US cars are awesome. They have a HUGE place in my heart.
.....but they will never compete with top class European models, like for like, for true driver engagement.
Even the yank motoring press, with their stars/stripes tweaked rose tinted glasses, admit that the best sports saloons still come from Europe.
Imho not anymore. The tides have turned. Coming from an E92 M3 to a Camaro SS 1LE. The Camaro has steering feel. The F BMWs got rid of it. .....but they will never compete with top class European models, like for like, for true driver engagement.
Even the yank motoring press, with their stars/stripes tweaked rose tinted glasses, admit that the best sports saloons still come from Europe.
Maybe 5 years ago but these new American cars are really competitive in everything except the interiors.
nickfrog said:
havoc said:
Forgive me, but it doesn't provide as much gear changing input. You flick a switch (paddle), the electronics do everything else.
Some of us enjoy the art of driving and the feeling of (mechanical) involvement with the car, and don't like the progress towards Playstation-like interfaces.
I assume that your cars have a cable operated throttle, carburettors, no servo, no assisted steering etc etc so that you enjoy the art of driving and the feeling of (mechanical) involvement with the car, and that you don't like the progress towards Playstation-like interfaces. Some of us enjoy the art of driving and the feeling of (mechanical) involvement with the car, and don't like the progress towards Playstation-like interfaces.
I already pointed out that there are some advances which make the driver's job easier with no / minimal impact on the engagement with the car. Carbs/EFI definitely falls into that camp, while brake servos and PAS (certainly hydraulic PAS) fall somewhere in the middle (depending on the engineering of the application - I've driven good servo'd brakes and sh'te ones, ditto PAS), with brake servos also offering a significant safety improvement.
Auto boxes are a different matter entirely, as they rob you of an entire mechanical connection, rather than introducing some degree of 'dilution' of the connection.
havoc said:
Auto boxes are a different matter entirely, as they rob you of an entire mechanical connection, rather than introducing some degree of 'dilution' of the connection.
Very true, and that's probably why I prefer a manual too - but that really doesn't mean that an auto driver can't enjoy the art of driving and the feeling of (mechanical) involvement with the car. Mechanical grip for starters might be their priority, or steering inputs or throttle/brake modulation. I am quite sure this can't be enjoyed on a Playstation.They might actually prefer an auto because it allows them to focus more on other primary controls, or more prosaically that their car of choice only comes in auto.
As always, different people like different things. No need for the judgement of value and sweeping statements. They don't make you big or clever
Fractk said:
Ares said:
With respect, US cars are awesome. They have a HUGE place in my heart.
.....but they will never compete with top class European models, like for like, for true driver engagement.
Even the yank motoring press, with their stars/stripes tweaked rose tinted glasses, admit that the best sports saloons still come from Europe.
Imho not anymore. The tides have turned. Coming from an E92 M3 to a Camaro SS 1LE. The Camaro has steering feel. The F BMWs got rid of it. .....but they will never compete with top class European models, like for like, for true driver engagement.
Even the yank motoring press, with their stars/stripes tweaked rose tinted glasses, admit that the best sports saloons still come from Europe.
Maybe 5 years ago but these new American cars are really competitive in everything except the interiors.
I drove a Charger at the same time, which was again fun, but even worse. Still has a fairly archaic chassis. Sure an improvement on 10yrs ago, but still lively, rather than alive from behind the wheel.
nickfrog said:
havoc said:
Auto boxes are a different matter entirely, as they rob you of an entire mechanical connection, rather than introducing some degree of 'dilution' of the connection.
Very true, and that's probably why I prefer a manual too - but that really doesn't mean that an auto driver can't enjoy the art of driving and the feeling of (mechanical) involvement with the car. Mechanical grip for starters might be their priority, or steering inputs or throttle/brake modulation. I am quite sure this can't be enjoyed on a Playstation.They might actually prefer an auto because it allows them to focus more on other primary controls, or more prosaically that their car of choice only comes in auto.
As always, different people like different things. No need for the judgement of value and sweeping statements. They don't make you big or clever
My complaint here (as with the demise of nat-asp and high-revving engines, also in the questionable name of "emissions") is the removal of choice from the buyer - if there was still a choice of 'box I'd not be commenting at all here!
To pick one example, how many nat-asp manual sports saloons* still exist to buy?!?
(And please don't claim it's down to buyer demand, a lot is down to mfrs either forcing or at the very least nudging buyers towards more fleet-CO2 friendly options (so the mfrs comply with fleet-average emissions regs), both with engines and 'boxes)
* A-la E36/E46/E90 M3 / 328i / 330i, E39 M5, E39 or E60 530i / 540i, Accord Type R (or the rally-refugee alternatives from Subaru or Mitsubishi), Audi B7 S4 / RS4, Panamera V8, Holden HSV8, Alfa 155 / 159 V6, Mondeo ST220...and possibly others I've forgotten?
havoc said:
Sorry Nick, but you're attributing too much to me - I stated my opinion and my preference, I didn't make a sweeping "I know it all" comment
I can't remember saying that you made a "I know it all" comment.I simply don't agree with your opinion that you can't enjoy the feeling of (mechanical) involvement with the car as much with an auto and that an auto makes a car like a Playstation interface. There is wide spectrum of enjoyment between a Playstation car and a manual one.
havoc said:
Some of us enjoy the art of driving and the feeling of (mechanical) involvement with the car, and don't like the progress towards Playstation-like interfaces.
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