RE: BMW 330i M Sport prototype: Driven

[Ares]

TWPC said:

Master Bean said:

BaronVonVaderham said:

If the 330i is powered by a 2L 4 cylinder, what on earth is a 320i powered by, fairies?

A 180ish bhp 2l 4 cylinder. Do please keep up at the back.

And the 318i has a 3 cyl 1.5l (like the Mini and BMW i8) and the Merc 'C200' now has a 4 cyl 1.5l.

I wish BMW and Mercedes had stuck to their model naming conventions. What's the problem with a BMW 315i and Merc C150? Surely it serves to highlight the technological progress that has been made that cars with such small engines can perform so well.

No need to answer...

Because the 318 owner would see a 315 as a slower/lower model. Ditto C200 owner viewing a replacement C150.

[Ares]

okenemem said:

3795mpower said:

For all the folk in astonishment at discovering a 2 litre 4 pot sits in front
Of that 330i badge, where have you all been since 2012 ?

The 328i and then 330i have been 4 pot since then.

just check couldn't believe it , tbh I don't see a lot of them

UK isn't really a target market for the 330i - they are rife in the US.

[Ares]

daveco said:

For the engineers out there,

Would a naturally aspirated HC 6 cylinder be lighter than a 4 cylinder turbo engine, and all parts associated with the turbo?

Its about emissions not weight though.

[Ares]

telecat said:

Ares said:

telecat said:

All I can say is thank God I bought a Six cylinder with Manual box when I did. The Guy who seems to be moving between the German makers making commission on the ZF is ruining whole ranges of cars Because HE sees no future for Manuals needs farming out to the Funny farm. The "commercial market feeds off the enthusiasts choices and without it why buy a BMW/Audi/Mercedes.

Its actually the world, and those people that actually buy the cars that have made the choice. The massive bulk of the populous doesn't want a manual box simply because modern autos are so much better (as long as you don't live life through rose tinted glasses).

It's not "the world" so much as China and In the West Company car policy. However they buy on the "Halo" created by the sporty cars in the line up. Why buy if there is no "halo"

It's not. Go and drive a modern car with a manual, then the same car with a good auto, the auto is just factually better. It might not stir the emotion or halcyon memories, but they are better.

And all (decent) manufacturers have a halo model. And in BMW's case, a halo model that has a manual option (that no-one buys).

[telecat]

Ares said:

telecat said:

Ares said:

telecat said:

All I can say is thank God I bought a Six cylinder with Manual box when I did. The Guy who seems to be moving between the German makers making commission on the ZF is ruining whole ranges of cars Because HE sees no future for Manuals needs farming out to the Funny farm. The "commercial market feeds off the enthusiasts choices and without it why buy a BMW/Audi/Mercedes.

Its actually the world, and those people that actually buy the cars that have made the choice. The massive bulk of the populous doesn't want a manual box simply because modern autos are so much better (as long as you don't live life through rose tinted glasses).

It's not "the world" so much as China and In the West Company car policy. However they buy on the "Halo" created by the sporty cars in the line up. Why buy if there is no "halo"

It's not. Go and drive a modern car with a manual, then the same car with a good auto, the auto is just factually better. It might not stir the emotion or halcyon memories, but they are better.

And all (decent) manufacturers have a halo model. And in BMW's case, a halo model that has a manual option (that no-one buys).

Tried the ZF in a few cars and I have a Manual Box. They do not respond as I want them to and I find them annoying to use. In the US the M3 is pretty much 50/50 on the box and that's against a Dual clutch rather than the over rated ZF.

[GTEYE]

telecat said:

Ares said:

telecat said:

All I can say is thank God I bought a Six cylinder with Manual box when I did. The Guy who seems to be moving between the German makers making commission on the ZF is ruining whole ranges of cars Because HE sees no future for Manuals needs farming out to the Funny farm. The "commercial market feeds off the enthusiasts choices and without it why buy a BMW/Audi/Mercedes.

Its actually the world, and those people that actually buy the cars that have made the choice. The massive bulk of the populous doesn't want a manual box simply because modern autos are so much better (as long as you don't live life through rose tinted glasses).

It's not "the world" so much as China and In the West Company car policy. However they buy on the "Halo" created by the sporty cars in the line up. Why buy if there is no "halo"

Well in my opinion, the 8 speed ZF box is massively better than the manual. BMW manual boxes are notchy, jerky and generally unpleasant - frankly quite terrible.

I actually like a good manual, but to be honest I've not tried a manual box in a BMW in the last 20 years that was any good. Objectively the ZF is a much better choice in a BMW, and that's why they are so popular.

I really don't think it's a conspiracy.

[Ares]

telecat said:

Tried the ZF in a few cars and I have a Manual Box. They do not respond as I want them to and I find them annoying to use. In the US the M3 is pretty much 50/50 on the box and that's against a Dual clutch rather than the over rated ZF.

That becomes either a preference thing or a prejudice thing (and would depend what cars you've driven with a ZF?). I'm on my 4th incarnation of the ZF box. They've gone from good, to very good, to fantastic (and so fantastic that even former race-driver journos confuse them with DCT/PDK boxes)

In Europe sales are almost 90/10 towards the DCT.


Edit to add - according to Frank van Meel (BMW M chief), US M3 manual sales have gone from 75% in 2007 to less than 25% in 2017.

Edited by Ares on Thursday 16th August 11:44

[JMF894]

I have a 2004 E46 320cd m sport which I bought as a cheap commuter. Despite being a diesel I really like it. The steering, rwd and driving postion mean I can still have some enjoyment from it. I also have a 2017 220d Gran Tourer m sport and it is the epitome of dull. I think this new 3 series could be very good. People just need to forget what the badge used to mean. You can still get a 6 cylinder if you want one and given most 3 series seem to get debadged what's the problem?

[Car-Matt]

TWPC said:

I wish BMW and Mercedes had stuck to their model naming conventions.

.

I dont think the model names have always been directly related to engine size...

E36 323 2.5l

[daveco]

Ares said:

daveco said:

For the engineers out there,

Would a naturally aspirated HC 6 cylinder be lighter than a 4 cylinder turbo engine, and all parts associated with the turbo?

Its about emissions not weight though.

Current gen 328 model with 2.0 litre turbo = 149g/km, 3.0 litre active hybrid, 6 cylinder model with 335 hp = 141g/km

Surely a naturally aspirated 3.0 litre would be there or thereabouts, considering the E90 330 with 270hp emits 173g/km and that's over 10 years old now??

[Ares]

JMF894 said:

I have a 2004 E46 320cd m sport which I bought as a cheap commuter. Despite being a diesel I really like it. The steering, rwd and driving postion mean I can still have some enjoyment from it. I also have a 2017 220d Gran Tourer m sport and it is the epitome of dull.

In fairness, comparing a 3-series coupe with a people carrier is always going to be questionable.

Its a bit like looking at Kate Beckinsale, then complaining that Janette Krankie is disappointingly ugly.

[Ruskins]

So BMW want to prove that you dont need to buy an M3 or Mseries car to have fun ... by testing a 330i M series?

[kambites]

daveco said:

Current gen 328 model with 2.0 litre turbo = 149g/km, 3.0 litre active hybrid, 6 cylinder model with 335 hp = 141g/km

Surely a naturally aspirated 3.0 litre would be there or thereabouts, considering the E90 330 with 270hp emits 173g/km and that's over 10 years old now??

"Emissions" is not the same as "CO2 emissions". I'm not sure BMW could get a 270bhp naturally aspirated 3.0 through WLTP and end up with better economy than the E90 330i. I wouldn't be surprised if such an engine ended up significant less economical than the turbocharged 6-pot.

[kambites]

Ruskins said:

So BMW want to prove that you dont need to buy an M3 or Mseries car to have fun ... by testing a 330i M series?

It's not an "M-series" (by which I assume you mean M-Performance model?), it's an M-sport, which is a trim level.

[Fetchez la vache]

kambites said:

Ruskins said:

So BMW want to prove that you dont need to buy an M3 or Mseries car to have fun ... by testing a 330i M series?

It's not an "M-series" (by which I assume you mean M-Performance model?), it's an M-sport, which is a trim level.

Exactly, so half the buyers think they're getting a 3 litre M car whereas in fact...

[Ares]

Fetchez la vache said:

kambites said:

Ruskins said:

So BMW want to prove that you dont need to buy an M3 or Mseries car to have fun ... by testing a 330i M series?

It's not an "M-series" (by which I assume you mean M-Performance model?), it's an M-sport, which is a trim level.

Exactly, so half the buyers think they're getting a 3 litre M car whereas in fact...

No, they really don't. The odd one perhaps, not half.

And not as many as run around in E36/E46 318s with M-Power badges, or M3 badges on

[E65Ross]

Fetchez la vache said:

kambites said:

Ruskins said:

So BMW want to prove that you dont need to buy an M3 or Mseries car to have fun ... by testing a 330i M series?

It's not an "M-series" (by which I assume you mean M-Performance model?), it's an M-sport, which is a trim level.

Exactly, so half the buyers think they're getting a 3 litre M car whereas in fact...

So you actually think 50% of people who are buying this car think they're getting a 3 litre M car? Why would you think that? Because 50% of the people buying this must have had a 330 E46 and therefore assume the new car is a 3 litre? They don't even check the spec sheet?

OK......

It's a model number, not an engine size. It's never been a specific engine size, more about performance. Hence in the 70s/80s when BMW did an E23 745i which had a 3.3 litre engine? Or do those with rose-tinted specs not quite remember back that far?

[Mr.Jimbo]

Are they not doing a 340i then? that seems to be the new 330i, i.e. 330i used to be the sportiest non M version you could get?

[Ares]

Mr.Jimbo said:

Are they not doing a 340i then? that seems to be the new 330i, i.e. 330i used to be the sportiest non M version you could get?

Of course they're doing a 340i. Just as there has been a 330i sitting beneath a 340i for years now.

[kambites]

Ares said:

Mr.Jimbo said:

Are they not doing a 340i then? that seems to be the new 330i, i.e. 330i used to be the sportiest non M version you could get?

Of course they're doing a 340i

Although with BMW's badge inflation it might end up being a 345i. That has a nice ring to it.