RE: BMW 330i M Sport prototype: Driven
Discussion
I agree the zf is a great auto box but any manual, even a notchy one, would be preferable.
Changing gears and clutch control is an important part of the driving experience and I've airways found auto boxes, no matter how good, are like a filter between the driver and the drivetrain, it slightly removes you from the experience. And that's on top of every delayed gear change or hesitation at a roundabout etc etc. Just builds up the resentment one day at a time!
I drove a manual e90 335i for 4 years and had no issues with the gearbox. Unfortunately it looks like my next car will be an auto as everything I'm considering was auto only but as soon as I can get back into a manual I will.
Unfortunate sign of the times that engines with more than 4 cylinders are disappearing, but at least some manufacturers are still producing them in none halo models, ala Audi S4, BMW 340i and Kia Stinger.
Not sure who the earlier poster is referring to when he said there are plenty of 30k 6 cylinder alternatives? Unless he's talking about a different country, it's certainly not the case in the UK
Changing gears and clutch control is an important part of the driving experience and I've airways found auto boxes, no matter how good, are like a filter between the driver and the drivetrain, it slightly removes you from the experience. And that's on top of every delayed gear change or hesitation at a roundabout etc etc. Just builds up the resentment one day at a time!
I drove a manual e90 335i for 4 years and had no issues with the gearbox. Unfortunately it looks like my next car will be an auto as everything I'm considering was auto only but as soon as I can get back into a manual I will.
Unfortunate sign of the times that engines with more than 4 cylinders are disappearing, but at least some manufacturers are still producing them in none halo models, ala Audi S4, BMW 340i and Kia Stinger.
Not sure who the earlier poster is referring to when he said there are plenty of 30k 6 cylinder alternatives? Unless he's talking about a different country, it's certainly not the case in the UK
Gez79 said:
I agree the zf is a great auto box but any manual, even a notchy one, would be preferable in my opinion.
Changing gears and clutch control is an important part of the driving experience in my opinion and I've airways found auto boxes, no matter how good, are like a filter between the driver and the drivetrain, it slightly removes you from the experience in my opinion. And that's on top of every delayed gear change or hesitation at a roundabout etc etc. Just builds up the resentment one day at a time in my opinion!
I drove a manual e90 335i for 4 years and had no issues with the gearbox. Unfortunately it looks like my next car will be an auto as everything I'm considering was auto only but as soon as I can get back into a manual I will.
Unfortunate sign of the times that engines with more than 4 cylinders are disappearing, but at least some manufacturers are still producing them in none halo models, ala Audi S4 (thats a 6-cyl), BMW 340i (thats a 6-cyl) and Kia Stinger (thats a 6-cyl).
Not sure who the earlier poster is referring to when he said there are plenty of 30k 6 cylinder alternatives? Unless he's talking about a different country, it's certainly not the case in the UK
EFA Changing gears and clutch control is an important part of the driving experience in my opinion and I've airways found auto boxes, no matter how good, are like a filter between the driver and the drivetrain, it slightly removes you from the experience in my opinion. And that's on top of every delayed gear change or hesitation at a roundabout etc etc. Just builds up the resentment one day at a time in my opinion!
I drove a manual e90 335i for 4 years and had no issues with the gearbox. Unfortunately it looks like my next car will be an auto as everything I'm considering was auto only but as soon as I can get back into a manual I will.
Unfortunate sign of the times that engines with more than 4 cylinders are disappearing, but at least some manufacturers are still producing them in none halo models, ala Audi S4 (thats a 6-cyl), BMW 340i (thats a 6-cyl) and Kia Stinger (thats a 6-cyl).
Not sure who the earlier poster is referring to when he said there are plenty of 30k 6 cylinder alternatives? Unless he's talking about a different country, it's certainly not the case in the UK
Ares said:
telecat said:
Tried the ZF in a few cars and I have a Manual Box. They do not respond as I want them to and I find them annoying to use. In the US the M3 is pretty much 50/50 on the box and that's against a Dual clutch rather than the over rated ZF.
That becomes either a preference thing or a prejudice thing (and would depend what cars you've driven with a ZF?). I'm on my 4th incarnation of the ZF box. They've gone from good, to very good, to fantastic (and so fantastic that even former race-driver journos confuse them with DCT/PDK boxes)In Europe sales are almost 90/10 towards the DCT.
Edit to add - according to Frank van Meel (BMW M chief), US M3 manual sales have gone from 75% in 2007 to less than 25% in 2017.
Edited by Ares on Thursday 16th August 11:44
telecat said:
I don't confuse them. The Lag off the line is a dead give away. Last Tried one in the Jaguar F-Type. It's behaviour approaching roundabouts and junctions put me off completely. As for how bad BMW manuals are that's pretty confusing to me. The Box in my M240 was very good to start with and has got better since it's oil change at the beginning of the month. And apologies the Figures I saw were for M2's.
Go and try a decent ZF application then. Jag boxes are poor applications, IMO. The best, IMO, is the Giulia Quadrifoglio, but I'm told the new M5 is better still.BMW manuals haven't got worse, they are still some of the best around in a mass-produced car, it's just that auto boxes have got SO much better.
Ares said:
Gez79 said:
I agree the zf is a great auto box but any manual, even a notchy one, would be preferable in my opinion.
Changing gears and clutch control is an important part of the driving experience in my opinion and I've airways found auto boxes, no matter how good, are like a filter between the driver and the drivetrain, it slightly removes you from the experience in my opinion. And that's on top of every delayed gear change or hesitation at a roundabout etc etc. Just builds up the resentment one day at a time in my opinion!
I drove a manual e90 335i for 4 years and had no issues with the gearbox. Unfortunately it looks like my next car will be an auto as everything I'm considering was auto only but as soon as I can get back into a manual I will.
Unfortunate sign of the times that engines with more than 4 cylinders are disappearing, but at least some manufacturers are still producing them in none halo models, ala Audi S4 (thats a 6-cyl), BMW 340i (thats a 6-cyl) and Kia Stinger (thats a 6-cyl).
Not sure who the earlier poster is referring to when he said there are plenty of 30k 6 cylinder alternatives? Unless he's talking about a different country, it's certainly not the case in the UK
EFA Changing gears and clutch control is an important part of the driving experience in my opinion and I've airways found auto boxes, no matter how good, are like a filter between the driver and the drivetrain, it slightly removes you from the experience in my opinion. And that's on top of every delayed gear change or hesitation at a roundabout etc etc. Just builds up the resentment one day at a time in my opinion!
I drove a manual e90 335i for 4 years and had no issues with the gearbox. Unfortunately it looks like my next car will be an auto as everything I'm considering was auto only but as soon as I can get back into a manual I will.
Unfortunate sign of the times that engines with more than 4 cylinders are disappearing, but at least some manufacturers are still producing them in none halo models, ala Audi S4 (thats a 6-cyl), BMW 340i (thats a 6-cyl) and Kia Stinger (thats a 6-cyl).
Not sure who the earlier poster is referring to when he said there are plenty of 30k 6 cylinder alternatives? Unless he's talking about a different country, it's certainly not the case in the UK
And if you'd read my post properly you'd have seen that I was highlighting the only 6 cylinder models left, they're just well over the 30k price band mentioned earlier.
I'll let you edit your own post for accuracy
Speedraser said:
Did I understand this correctly -- they're returning the 3 to its driver's car roots, but making the "upper" models automatic only???
wab172uk said:
The only configuration I'd consider, would be a 340i, with a manual gearbox and X-Drive.
I'd bet quite highly, that that configuration will be impossible to order. Want an 340i? Auto gearbox only.
As per a previous poster, I bet this is emissions-related, i.e. the auto-box delivers (on the official test*) much better CO2 than the manual when mated to the turbo'd lumps.I'd bet quite highly, that that configuration will be impossible to order. Want an 340i? Auto gearbox only.
...and I'm equally disappointed. Really can't imagine 'driving' (i.e. properly engaging with the car, rather than just A-to-B travelling) a car on the road without a manual 'box.
* Under EU Combined Cycle auto-boxes got a real 'gimme' as the EUCC let the auto box choose its own shift-points (i.e. ridiculously, unreasonably low), whereas a manual box HAD to be shifted at a set % of max rpm (which was another reason why high-revving engines died-off...not because of any innate inefficiency with them). I'm guessing that unfair advantage has carried-over to the new test regime...
havoc said:
Speedraser said:
Did I understand this correctly -- they're returning the 3 to its driver's car roots, but making the "upper" models automatic only???
wab172uk said:
The only configuration I'd consider, would be a 340i, with a manual gearbox and X-Drive.
I'd bet quite highly, that that configuration will be impossible to order. Want an 340i? Auto gearbox only.
As per a previous poster, I bet this is emissions-related, i.e. the auto-box delivers (on the official test*) much better CO2 than the manual when mated to the turbo'd lumps.I'd bet quite highly, that that configuration will be impossible to order. Want an 340i? Auto gearbox only.
...and I'm equally disappointed. Really can't imagine 'driving' (i.e. properly engaging with the car, rather than just A-to-B travelling) a car on the road without a manual 'box.
As for not 'driving' a car without a manual box...don't knock it until you've tried it. My QV is the most involving car I've owned aside from my race Caterham.
kambites said:
Ruskins said:
So BMW want to prove that you dont need to buy an M3 or Mseries car to have fun ... by testing a 330i M series?
It's not an "M-series" (by which I assume you mean M-Performance model?), it's an M-sport, which is a trim level. Well as a previous 340i owner I think things are looking good so far. More focus on handling, higher quality interior and would assume lower wind noise etc, more interior space and more tech, all with lower weight.
Who gives a monkies what the made up list price is, no one pays that much (Well maybe Joe public do) and 20% odd discounts won't be far off from launch. Plus it will all been down to the monthlies anyway for the majority of us.
So long as they do the m340i in touring form then all good, if it's x drive bit of a s
tter but hopefully someone at bmw now knows how to make a 4x4 system that handles well and doesn't have a jacked up ride height by now. Even my current barge of a v90 d5 r design manages that!
Who gives a monkies what the made up list price is, no one pays that much (Well maybe Joe public do) and 20% odd discounts won't be far off from launch. Plus it will all been down to the monthlies anyway for the majority of us.
So long as they do the m340i in touring form then all good, if it's x drive bit of a s
tter but hopefully someone at bmw now knows how to make a 4x4 system that handles well and doesn't have a jacked up ride height by now. Even my current barge of a v90 d5 r design manages that! corozin said:
Despite all the marketing hype it's clear this version of the 330i doesn't seem to have much more performance than the old E46 330ci had almost 20 years ago.
Clear how? The 2000 model year 330ci had 228bhp and 221lb/ft torque, so the new model has 13% more power and 35% more torque and will probably weigh in at around 1500kg as well.
These figures suggest it will be quite a bit quicker, as well as significantly less polluting.
daveco said:
Current gen 328 model with 2.0 litre turbo = 149g/km, 3.0 litre active hybrid, 6 cylinder model with 335 hp = 141g/km
Those models have all been superseded. You can't buy a new (F30) 328i. You can have a 330i though, with the 2.0 4 cylinder engine and auto only which emits 140g CO2/km.Likewise you can no longer buy the Active Hybrid, stopping it back in mid 2015. They have even stopped making its replacement, the 330e (45g CO2/km).
I can't believe the amount of alleged surprise that the next gen 330i will have 4 cylinders. Same as the outgoing one, same as the 330e was, same as the current 530i & 530e. Pistonheads eh? Hmmm.
Edited by BFleming on Thursday 16th August 14:02
Ares said:
havoc said:
Speedraser said:
Did I understand this correctly -- they're returning the 3 to its driver's car roots, but making the "upper" models automatic only???
wab172uk said:
The only configuration I'd consider, would be a 340i, with a manual gearbox and X-Drive.
I'd bet quite highly, that that configuration will be impossible to order. Want an 340i? Auto gearbox only.
As per a previous poster, I bet this is emissions-related, i.e. the auto-box delivers (on the official test*) much better CO2 than the manual when mated to the turbo'd lumps.I'd bet quite highly, that that configuration will be impossible to order. Want an 340i? Auto gearbox only.
...and I'm equally disappointed. Really can't imagine 'driving' (i.e. properly engaging with the car, rather than just A-to-B travelling) a car on the road without a manual 'box.
Over the years the use of indicators are becoming less so. Junctions, round-a-bouts. It's a guess where the car coming your way will go. I put this down to automatic boxes. Where in a manual your arm is moving anyway to change gear, so it's a simple arm movement up to hit the indicator. With Automatic cars, the drivers arm is no doubt lent on the armrest. And given it's a struggle, and no doubt offensive to be requested to move your arm, they remain stuck to the armrest, and they just steer left / right, in which direction they choose to go.
Also, the rise of Auto box sales has come from the better CO2, & mpg the auto boxes give you. But do they actually? Years ago, the Auto box always got worse mpg than the manual. Now, it's the other way round. And in the aftermath of cheat-gate we know why. Software programmed to go from 1st to 7th in a blink of an eye to get false readings. Same software is not attached to customer cars, hence why you can never replicate the mpg figures.
Also, as said by another poster, these auto boxes never give you the right gear at the right time. I've tied a few Audi DSG boxes. In normal mode, they just feel lazy, and in Dynamic mode, it just hangs onto the gear for dear life. Hate them
Problem is, when both are/were offered, customers bought the auto in far greater volume!
As for not 'driving' a car without a manual box...don't knock it until you've tried it. My QV is the most involving car I've owned aside from my race Caterham.
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