Roadspace for cars in London
Discussion
Having previously enjoyed driving in London on a daily basis over the last 2-3 years I have switched to 2 wheels (scooter) which is much more enjoyable. Today however I decided to drive in (late start post rush hour, summer holiday season as well as heavy rain made up my mind for me). Doing really well until Holborn when traffic ground to a halt and it took me 1 hour to do last 2.5 miles. Sitting in the traffic I started to look at all the roads I travelled on and how many of them had gone from 2 lanes to 1 replaced by bus lanes or cycle super highways and wondered what percentage of road space was lost in last 5 years to cars in London. I would guestimate about 40% anyone got a more precise figure?
Over the last couple of decades, as bus lanes began to appear on what were formerly dual-carriageway roads (albeit 30-40mph limit), especially bus lanes watched by cameras, I noticed a distinct increase in congestion almost certainly caused by cars no longer being able to use the leftmost lane to pass the queue of traffic wanting to go straight or right.
So although a bus can quickly zip along its lane, due to the lane not being continuous through the whole bus journey, the bus ends up being a victim of the congestion that has resulted from the loss of a lane which cars used to use and which used to help clear the congestion as mentioned in the paragraph above.
I think bus lanes have caused more harm than good.
So although a bus can quickly zip along its lane, due to the lane not being continuous through the whole bus journey, the bus ends up being a victim of the congestion that has resulted from the loss of a lane which cars used to use and which used to help clear the congestion as mentioned in the paragraph above.
I think bus lanes have caused more harm than good.
Ron99 said:
Over the last couple of decades, as bus lanes began to appear on what were formerly dual-carriageway roads (albeit 30-40mph limit), especially bus lanes watched by cameras, I noticed a distinct increase in congestion almost certainly caused by cars no longer being able to use the leftmost lane to pass the queue of traffic wanting to go straight or right.
So although a bus can quickly zip along its lane, due to the lane not being continuous through the whole bus journey, the bus ends up being a victim of the congestion that has resulted from the loss of a lane which cars used to use and which used to help clear the congestion as mentioned in the paragraph above.
I think bus lanes have caused more harm than good.
More harm (to driving) than good (to driving), correct!So although a bus can quickly zip along its lane, due to the lane not being continuous through the whole bus journey, the bus ends up being a victim of the congestion that has resulted from the loss of a lane which cars used to use and which used to help clear the congestion as mentioned in the paragraph above.
I think bus lanes have caused more harm than good.
The whole point is to incentivise space efficient forms of transport. That means buses and bikes.
Think of it as a justification for getting rid of the boring commuter car and getting something that you only need for the weekends.
London is just a mess, an incoherent and ill thought out set of transport plans that are changed on a whim every few years resulting in an overcrowded, expensive and piss poor public transport system combined with the worst of all worlds for drivers of motorised vehicles and cyclists alike. I managed 18 months there before I realised I was stupid for even trying it and got out.
cb1965 said:
London is just a mess, an incoherent and ill thought out set of transport plans that are changed on a whim every few years resulting in an overcrowded, expensive and piss poor public transport system combined with the worst of all worlds for drivers of motorised vehicles and cyclists alike. I managed 18 months there before I realised I was stupid for even trying it and got out.
Not just LondonThing is that with smaller cities it's less of a pain. Manchester is a long way from perfect, but you don't sit in miles and miles of traffic crawling through the city as you can't.... it's not that big thankfully. I had the misfortune to drive form Acton across to Deptford one evening last winter... I allowed an hour and a half, it took an hour longer .... my time is just so much more valuable than putting up with that .... if other people want to live that way then they can crack on, I'm out of it now thank goodness.
k up everything they touch To expand on my previous post
traffic light sequences were altered to reduce flow rates, to allow longer pedestrian crossing times and cycle lights ... and actually deliberately cause congestion to both discourage drivers and provide a reason for road charging
The growth of bus lanes and cycles lanes has hugely reduced available road space, tie that to the tampering reducing flow rates me mentioned above and the restricting of rat runs and side streets forcing more vehicles into the restricted road space
In Liverpool they abolished ALL bus lanes saying they didn’t work and caused more problems for buses and other road users than they solved ( I think they have reinstated 4 in the city centre since)
So .. as I said Politicians
traffic light sequences were altered to reduce flow rates, to allow longer pedestrian crossing times and cycle lights ... and actually deliberately cause congestion to both discourage drivers and provide a reason for road charging
The growth of bus lanes and cycles lanes has hugely reduced available road space, tie that to the tampering reducing flow rates me mentioned above and the restricting of rat runs and side streets forcing more vehicles into the restricted road space
In Liverpool they abolished ALL bus lanes saying they didn’t work and caused more problems for buses and other road users than they solved ( I think they have reinstated 4 in the city centre since)
So .. as I said Politicians
On the other hand and playing devil's advocate somewhat...
Leaving goods aside, surely the transportation of individuals by car has to be the most wasteful use of space and resource? Compared to space required for pedestrians and cyclists, the amount of space that has to be given so that individuals can travel by car has to be incredibly wasteful? When you think of the space needed, and the control of traffic, the infrastructure, the policing and so on.
Then there is the issue of parking cars on the road and even over-night keeping of cars on roads. Can there possibly be a more wasteful use of space? Were the roads ever designed for the use of personal storage, or were the roads designed for transportation? How much more freely might traffic/people be able to move if parking on street was restricted and certainly the keeping of cars/personal property on public road space banned completely?
Leaving goods aside, surely the transportation of individuals by car has to be the most wasteful use of space and resource? Compared to space required for pedestrians and cyclists, the amount of space that has to be given so that individuals can travel by car has to be incredibly wasteful? When you think of the space needed, and the control of traffic, the infrastructure, the policing and so on.
Then there is the issue of parking cars on the road and even over-night keeping of cars on roads. Can there possibly be a more wasteful use of space? Were the roads ever designed for the use of personal storage, or were the roads designed for transportation? How much more freely might traffic/people be able to move if parking on street was restricted and certainly the keeping of cars/personal property on public road space banned completely?
heebeegeetee said:
On the other hand and playing devil's advocate somewhat...
Leaving goods aside, surely the transportation of individuals by car has to be the most wasteful use of space and resource? Compared to space required for pedestrians and cyclists, the amount of space that has to be given so that individuals can travel by car has to be incredibly wasteful? When you think of the space needed, and the control of traffic, the infrastructure, the policing and so on.
Then there is the issue of parking cars on the road and even over-night keeping of cars on roads. Can there possibly be a more wasteful use of space? Were the roads ever designed for the use of personal storage, or were the roads designed for transportation? How much more freely might traffic/people be able to move if parking on street was restricted and certainly the keeping of cars/personal property on public road space banned completely?
Mumsnet is over there >>>>>>>>> Leaving goods aside, surely the transportation of individuals by car has to be the most wasteful use of space and resource? Compared to space required for pedestrians and cyclists, the amount of space that has to be given so that individuals can travel by car has to be incredibly wasteful? When you think of the space needed, and the control of traffic, the infrastructure, the policing and so on.
Then there is the issue of parking cars on the road and even over-night keeping of cars on roads. Can there possibly be a more wasteful use of space? Were the roads ever designed for the use of personal storage, or were the roads designed for transportation? How much more freely might traffic/people be able to move if parking on street was restricted and certainly the keeping of cars/personal property on public road space banned completely?
I believe this is a Car enthusiasts forum
heebeegeetee said:
On the other hand and playing devil's advocate somewhat...
Leaving goods aside, surely the transportation of individuals by car has to be the most wasteful use of space and resource? Compared to space required for pedestrians and cyclists, the amount of space that has to be given so that individuals can travel by car has to be incredibly wasteful? When you think of the space needed, and the control of traffic, the infrastructure, the policing and so on.
Then there is the issue of parking cars on the road and even over-night keeping of cars on roads. Can there possibly be a more wasteful use of space? Were the roads ever designed for the use of personal storage, or were the roads designed for transportation? How much more freely might traffic/people be able to move if parking on street was restricted and certainly the keeping of cars/personal property on public road space banned completely?
Is this the Owen Jones section of the guardian online or piston heads?Leaving goods aside, surely the transportation of individuals by car has to be the most wasteful use of space and resource? Compared to space required for pedestrians and cyclists, the amount of space that has to be given so that individuals can travel by car has to be incredibly wasteful? When you think of the space needed, and the control of traffic, the infrastructure, the policing and so on.
Then there is the issue of parking cars on the road and even over-night keeping of cars on roads. Can there possibly be a more wasteful use of space? Were the roads ever designed for the use of personal storage, or were the roads designed for transportation? How much more freely might traffic/people be able to move if parking on street was restricted and certainly the keeping of cars/personal property on public road space banned completely?
I think I'm reasonably enthusiastic. I've just spent three consecutive weekends at Shelsley Walsh, at the Classic Nostalgia (Friday evening was great, quaffing HPA whilst stood by Mansell's FW14 and being able to crawl all over a 2017 Williams), a breakfast club and competing myself, respectively. This weekend I'm doing an economy run, and I've paid a four-figure sum for four people and two camper vans for the whole weekend at the Goodwood revival. And I have a small garage business myself.
I take it then that the thread isn't really about car space, but more the usual 'roads are for people who want to use cars and everyone else can eff off'.
I take it then that the thread isn't really about car space, but more the usual 'roads are for people who want to use cars and everyone else can eff off'.
wst said:
The whole point is to incentivise space efficient forms of transport. That means buses and bikes.
This.There aren't many Western cities with population density as high as London. You'd need to be stark, raving bonkers to think that driving a car into London at peak times is an acceptable thing to do.
Earthdweller said:
heebeegeetee said:
On the other hand and playing devil's advocate somewhat...
Leaving goods aside, surely the transportation of individuals by car has to be the most wasteful use of space and resource? Compared to space required for pedestrians and cyclists, the amount of space that has to be given so that individuals can travel by car has to be incredibly wasteful? When you think of the space needed, and the control of traffic, the infrastructure, the policing and so on.
Then there is the issue of parking cars on the road and even over-night keeping of cars on roads. Can there possibly be a more wasteful use of space? Were the roads ever designed for the use of personal storage, or were the roads designed for transportation? How much more freely might traffic/people be able to move if parking on street was restricted and certainly the keeping of cars/personal property on public road space banned completely?
Mumsnet is over there >>>>>>>>> Leaving goods aside, surely the transportation of individuals by car has to be the most wasteful use of space and resource? Compared to space required for pedestrians and cyclists, the amount of space that has to be given so that individuals can travel by car has to be incredibly wasteful? When you think of the space needed, and the control of traffic, the infrastructure, the policing and so on.
Then there is the issue of parking cars on the road and even over-night keeping of cars on roads. Can there possibly be a more wasteful use of space? Were the roads ever designed for the use of personal storage, or were the roads designed for transportation? How much more freely might traffic/people be able to move if parking on street was restricted and certainly the keeping of cars/personal property on public road space banned completely?
I believe this is a Car enthusiasts forum
Ron99 said:
Over the last couple of decades, as bus lanes began to appear on what were formerly dual-carriageway roads (albeit 30-40mph limit), especially bus lanes watched by cameras, I noticed a distinct increase in congestion almost certainly caused by cars no longer being able to use the leftmost lane to pass the queue of traffic wanting to go straight or right.
So although a bus can quickly zip along its lane carrying 87 times as many people in a similar footprint to the average London car, due to the lane not being continuous through the whole bus journey, the bus ends up being a victim of the congestion that has resulted from the loss of a lane which cars used to use and which used to help clear the congestion as mentioned in the paragraph above.
I think bus lanes have caused more harm than good.
Added a bit that you may have (intentionally?) omitted, in bold.So although a bus can quickly zip along its lane carrying 87 times as many people in a similar footprint to the average London car, due to the lane not being continuous through the whole bus journey, the bus ends up being a victim of the congestion that has resulted from the loss of a lane which cars used to use and which used to help clear the congestion as mentioned in the paragraph above.
I think bus lanes have caused more harm than good.
C70R said:
Added a bit that you may have (intentionally?) omitted, in bold.
Worth noting that depsite this being the case, rarely are the buses packed to capacity outside of rush hour. But for their size, I think they probably only need to carry 3-4 people to be more space-efficient than that number of cars?
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