Roadspace for cars in London
Discussion
Earthdweller said:
heebeegeetee said:
On the other hand and playing devil's advocate somewhat...
Leaving goods aside, surely the transportation of individuals by car has to be the most wasteful use of space and resource? Compared to space required for pedestrians and cyclists, the amount of space that has to be given so that individuals can travel by car has to be incredibly wasteful? When you think of the space needed, and the control of traffic, the infrastructure, the policing and so on.
Then there is the issue of parking cars on the road and even over-night keeping of cars on roads. Can there possibly be a more wasteful use of space? Were the roads ever designed for the use of personal storage, or were the roads designed for transportation? How much more freely might traffic/people be able to move if parking on street was restricted and certainly the keeping of cars/personal property on public road space banned completely?
Mumsnet is over there >>>>>>>>> Leaving goods aside, surely the transportation of individuals by car has to be the most wasteful use of space and resource? Compared to space required for pedestrians and cyclists, the amount of space that has to be given so that individuals can travel by car has to be incredibly wasteful? When you think of the space needed, and the control of traffic, the infrastructure, the policing and so on.
Then there is the issue of parking cars on the road and even over-night keeping of cars on roads. Can there possibly be a more wasteful use of space? Were the roads ever designed for the use of personal storage, or were the roads designed for transportation? How much more freely might traffic/people be able to move if parking on street was restricted and certainly the keeping of cars/personal property on public road space banned completely?
I believe this is a Car enthusiasts forum
It's a fair point but it would take a lot of investment to make it work in the way the Japanese do. Underground parking with elevator carousels etc etc. But it'd be very difficult adding all that stuff in a way that would make a meaningful difference but not disrupt the surrounding architecture etc.
Dr mojo said:
I agree London has pretty good public transport but my comment was just reflecting on how despite the congestion charge, driving in London over the last 2 years has become so much worse than before. It can not be increase in volume of cars in that time period but must be due to a significant reduction in capacity on the road network. Its a shame that the ability to drive in London is now severely restricted but I can understand the health/ environmental reasons. I am not sure the current situation,however, is good for cars/ cyclists or trade.
One reason road capacity has been reduced is due to the introduction of cycle superhighways and segregated lanes where possible. Where once there was once a bus lane and a normal lane is, in many places, now merged creating traffic whenever a bus stops. Cycling has grown massively in London but also cyclists are frequently disappearing under lorries. It's a political hot potato so the Mayor has to be seen doing something so makes TfL do something and this is their solution.Loading spaces have been disappearing forcing deliver drivers to stop where they can to quickly deliver before a traffic warden tickets them, usually bang outside the building causing traffic to squeeze past, slowing everything down.
The rise of Uber. Minicabs who crawl around London waiting for a fare to pop up on their phones. These guys have no base to return to, off the road, so are generally cruising around waiting. There's over 40k of these guys.
Internet deliveries! People order s
t to be delivered to their workplaces instead of homes (as they're not in) so you masses of plain white vans darting around.Construction. It seems London is being continually rebuilt with new skyscrapers, super sewers, or rail lines being built. Not only do you have extra construction traffic but also lane closures, temp traffic lights and general f
kwittery around building sites. (Only yesterday I was stuck in a 30 min queue due to one lane (out of two) being closed out in East London 
)I have a copy of the London illustrated evening news from the mid 30s, found in my attic when we moved in. One of the stories is regarding the need to construct more parking provision (underground) to address the expected vast increase in car ownership. So hardly a problem that's new...
But in the last 10-15 years its gone from bad to near intolerable, I'd happily drive from north to south London if asked and its just not worth the sitting in traffic, the problem is motorists have been effectively thown under the bus by a policy of not improving roads, and in many cases reducing capacity. This is probably for the pc reasons touched on that they've made driving difficult to dis-incentivise, trouble for trades like me there's no bicycle or bus that can move a ton of tools and equipment from home to site! Making local junctions worse won't stop someone driving 7 instead of 4 minutes to waitrose, or 15 instead of 9 to school, but it will make my journey into town 1hr30 instead of 45 mins. And making parking as difficult as possible has now resulted in tradies paying a kid to drive the van round and round and round the block all day... Because ultimately people live in the city and if you need a bog or trippy fuse board fixed you need it fixed.
But in the last 10-15 years its gone from bad to near intolerable, I'd happily drive from north to south London if asked and its just not worth the sitting in traffic, the problem is motorists have been effectively thown under the bus by a policy of not improving roads, and in many cases reducing capacity. This is probably for the pc reasons touched on that they've made driving difficult to dis-incentivise, trouble for trades like me there's no bicycle or bus that can move a ton of tools and equipment from home to site! Making local junctions worse won't stop someone driving 7 instead of 4 minutes to waitrose, or 15 instead of 9 to school, but it will make my journey into town 1hr30 instead of 45 mins. And making parking as difficult as possible has now resulted in tradies paying a kid to drive the van round and round and round the block all day... Because ultimately people live in the city and if you need a bog or trippy fuse board fixed you need it fixed.
It is all relative regards how people see London's public transport...for me, it's fantastic.
Amazingly, there are other people on this thread who have also lived in other countries......
Where I grew up, the only public transport was a bus every half an hour, that generally only took you half the way of where you wanted to go. You'd wait for another one to get to where you wanted to go, and could wait another half an hour for that.
There wasn't a nearby train station, yet the city centre was less than 5 miles away. The above mentioned buses stopped service at around 7pm...
So you can see why I think London's public transport is fantastic!
Today I cycled from west to east London. Even though I got a little lost near the end, it took me under an hour to do 12 mles. I could have jumped on a couple of tubes but it wouldn't have been as much fun, (or as cheap).
Amazingly, there are other people on this thread who have also lived in other countries......
Where I grew up, the only public transport was a bus every half an hour, that generally only took you half the way of where you wanted to go. You'd wait for another one to get to where you wanted to go, and could wait another half an hour for that.
There wasn't a nearby train station, yet the city centre was less than 5 miles away. The above mentioned buses stopped service at around 7pm...
So you can see why I think London's public transport is fantastic!
Today I cycled from west to east London. Even though I got a little lost near the end, it took me under an hour to do 12 mles. I could have jumped on a couple of tubes but it wouldn't have been as much fun, (or as cheap).
To add some balance. I still enjoy driving through central London. Most of it is still accessible by car, which seems pretty unbelievable given the level of fear about terrorism/pollution/accidents. You can still normally drive around Buckingham Palace, through Hyde Park and beside some of the most popular museums in the world.
It's tricky to find parking during the week, but most residential streets still seem to offer parking for the people who live there and much is available to anyone on the weekend. The congestion charge is expensive, but seems to have improved things for everyone by reducing traffic. And London's public transport system is absolutely first class.
The systems in any other city in England are a disgrace in comparison - disjointed, expensive, slow public transport systems alongside roads that are utterly jammed at peak times. I actually find London traffic tends to flow better than in other cities, even when it's busy. Manchester, in contrast, becomes completely stuck in the morning and evening.
It's tricky to find parking during the week, but most residential streets still seem to offer parking for the people who live there and much is available to anyone on the weekend. The congestion charge is expensive, but seems to have improved things for everyone by reducing traffic. And London's public transport system is absolutely first class.
The systems in any other city in England are a disgrace in comparison - disjointed, expensive, slow public transport systems alongside roads that are utterly jammed at peak times. I actually find London traffic tends to flow better than in other cities, even when it's busy. Manchester, in contrast, becomes completely stuck in the morning and evening.
cb1965 said:
of course it doesn't unless you're a myopic money motivated **** and London has plenty of those.... I just hope they stay there.
Would you like some salt for that chip on your shoulder?And yeah, Lewisham is actually on the up. And more people seem to want to live there than whatever s
thole you live in.ericmcn said:
dont understand why people go driving in London, people who are visiting for the day or whatnot - just get other transport, its a joke and as for cyclists - cycling in Lodon is a good way to reduce your life expectancy dramatically.
Hardly. Cycling is likely to increase your life expectancy.Take, for example, the Boris Bikes which have accurate usage stats. The first fatality was after 34 million miles had been cycled. So the risk to any one cyclist is tiny. Probably outweighed by the benefits to health from regular moderate exercise.
https://understandinguncertainty.org/fatality-risk...
Killboy said:
Would you like some salt for that chip on your shoulder?
And yeah, Lewisham is actually on the up. And more people seem to want to live there than whatever sthole you live in.
Lewisham couldn’t really be anything but on the up though, it’s virtually a slum. And yeah, Lewisham is actually on the up. And more people seem to want to live there than whatever s
thole you live in.Btw why is my having a negative opinion of London equating to me having a chip on my shoulder? Just because I don’t agree with you I guess.
cb1965 said:
Btw why is my having a negative opinion of London equating to me having a chip on my shoulder? Just because I don’t agree with you I guess.
You seem to seek out every London threat and try bash it with some sort of authority, and when challenged you come up with things like this:cb1965 said:
Come back when you have some real experience of the rest of the world not just of a capital city probably more hated by the rest of the country's inhabitants than any other capital city in the world.
Its a bit sad, and you should probably see someone about it 
Killboy said:
cb1965 said:
Come back when you have some real experience of the rest of the world not just of a capital city probably more hated by the rest of the country's inhabitants than any other capital city in the world.
Its a bit sad, and you should probably see someone about it PS As for authority - I'm a Londoner who got out and saw a large part of the world outside of your idea of Utopia so you'll just have to accept that at least my opinion has some level of qualification.
I always wondered how this would work as an early-CMH era Top Gear challenge. Pick 3 cars to drive between Bedford and Brighton, in rush hour. Put The Stig on the train
one car goes via Heathrow, one car goes via Dartford and one car goes straight through the middle of London.
And see who wins.
one car goes via Heathrow, one car goes via Dartford and one car goes straight through the middle of London.
And see who wins.
cb1965 said:
C70R said:
cb1965 said:
C70R said:
London's public transport is fantastic and very comprehensive, considering the phenomenal limitations.
No, it's really not. I have lived in several other major cities around the world and all of them had far better transport infrastructures than London. In fact I haven't found a city harder to travel round in my entire 53 years on this planet.You think it's great because you have either have no other benchmarks and/or have been brought up with low expectations and like most people in Britain are happy to put up with crap.
te! Come back when you have some real experience of the rest of the world not just of a capital city probably more hated by the rest of the country's inhabitants than any other capital city in the world.
The perpetual ramblings of a bitter, old man don't faze me. I've travelled in most of the top 20 biggest cities in the world, and most of the top 20 first-world capital cities (by GDP). I choose to live in London, and am continually delighted by how accessible and reliable its public transport system is compared with most of the above. For example, this morning I travelled 7 miles (as the crow flies) straight through the middle of one of the the Western world's most densely-populated cities, and it took me approximately 40min (including a short walk at both ends). I had a seat for most of my journey, and I didn't wait more than 2min for a train at either of my changes.
I'm sure someone with your obvious worldly-wise experience can list the many other cities in the world as old as London, with transport infrastructure which is 140+ years old that works better than that.
Edited by C70R on Monday 20th August 10:25
Bus and cycle lanes are the reason congestion is worse. The current and previous mayors are to blame.
The requirement for a bus lane is that a bus should use it at the rate of 1 every minute. So a bus lane is acceptable on roads like Piccadilly, Park Lane, etc. How many times do we see an empty bus lane and all the other traffic squashed into the remaining lane and causing a tailback. If both lanes were open to all traffic, congestion (and therefore pollution) would be reduced.
The current mayor goes on about pollution but it is his fault due to his idiotic policies that cause it.
This obviously applies to other places as well as London. There's a bus lane from Kidlington into Oxford. It reduces the road to one lane. I can count on one hand the buses I have seen in that bus lane.
I used to drive 10,000 miles every 3 months in central London but now thankfully don't need to.
On the TFL website it had alternatives to avoid the pollution charge (LEZ), such as buying a new car.
They left off one alternative - Don't bother going into London.
The requirement for a bus lane is that a bus should use it at the rate of 1 every minute. So a bus lane is acceptable on roads like Piccadilly, Park Lane, etc. How many times do we see an empty bus lane and all the other traffic squashed into the remaining lane and causing a tailback. If both lanes were open to all traffic, congestion (and therefore pollution) would be reduced.
The current mayor goes on about pollution but it is his fault due to his idiotic policies that cause it.
This obviously applies to other places as well as London. There's a bus lane from Kidlington into Oxford. It reduces the road to one lane. I can count on one hand the buses I have seen in that bus lane.
I used to drive 10,000 miles every 3 months in central London but now thankfully don't need to.
On the TFL website it had alternatives to avoid the pollution charge (LEZ), such as buying a new car.
They left off one alternative - Don't bother going into London.
Shakermaker said:
I always wondered how this would work as an early-CMH era Top Gear challenge. Pick 3 cars to drive between Bedford and Brighton, in rush hour. Put The Stig on the train
one car goes via Heathrow, one car goes via Dartford and one car goes straight through the middle of London.
And see who wins.
Stig, by a country mile.one car goes via Heathrow, one car goes via Dartford and one car goes straight through the middle of London.
And see who wins.
Jagmanv12 said:
The requirement for a bus lane is that a bus should use it at the rate of 1 every minute. So a bus lane is acceptable on roads like Piccadilly, Park Lane, etc. How many times do we see an empty bus lane and all the other traffic squashed into the remaining lane and causing a tailback.
I don't know. As someone who appears to have all the answers, you tell me...Jagmanv12 said:
They left off one alternative - Don't bother going into London.
And there it is. The rampant anti-London agenda. Barely hidden beneath an apparent desire to seem reasonable...C70R said:
I choose to live in London
You're clearly mad.C70R said:
and am continually delighted by how accessible and reliable its public transport system is compared with most of the above.
You just have very low standards ... oh and you're clearly mad!C70R said:
For example, this morning I travelled 7 miles (as the crow flies) straight through the middle of one of the the Western world's most densely-populated cities, and it took me approximately 40min (including a short walk at both ends). I had a seat for most of my journey, and I didn't wait more than 2min for a train at either of my changes.
What were you doing in Paris? I ask as London isn't one of the Western world's most densely populated cities, it just feels like it because it is a ****ing mess. Look it up if you don't believe me, there are 16 more dense populations in the EU alone.C70R said:
I'm sure someone with your obvious worldly-wise experience can list the many other cities in the world as old as London, with transport infrastructure which is 140+ years old that works better than that.
Nope as proper cities have modernised their transport infrastructure.cb1965 said:
C70R said:
I'm sure someone with your obvious worldly-wise experience can list the many other cities in the world as old as London, with transport infrastructure which is 140+ years old that works better than that.
Nope as proper cities have modernised their transport infrastructure.
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