Supermarket Fuel, Facts Please

[NickGRhodes]

ryandoc said:

Haven’t read much of this.

The facts. All of the fuel is exact same whether it be for shell / BP or your local Tesco. Comes from the same tank, not refined differently. Identical.

The additives are all that differ and they are added at the loading nozzle right before it enters the loading compartment.

She’ll no longer own a refinery in this country, they but their fuel from someone else who has added this additive for them, which is Shell’s case is GTL.

100% fact. Worked for Shell. Looked after the flow metering at a certain very large ex refinery of theirs and was up close and personal with the loading, the additives.
Use to carry around spare loading cards in my pocket In case any drivers cards had issues. One was for Shell, the other one covered every other customer. Ie all the others even gor the same additive but shell got their own.
Dealt with all the loading systems, BOL’s. Operated / maintained the loading system blah blah.

Anyone tells you the fuels are refined different are talking out their hole.

I think you may be getting confused.

GTL is a different refinary process and not an additive.
GTL is a refinary process called Gas to Liquids and nothing to do with additives (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_to_liquids).

"Shell GTL Fuel is produced at the Pearl GTL plant in Ras Laffan, Qatar, the world’s largest facility for turning natural gas into cleaner-burning fuels and lubricants. Pearl GTL is a development between Qatar Petroleum and Shell. The fuel is now commercially available in The Netherlands, Germany, United Kingdom, Denmark and France."

https://www.shell.co.uk/about-us/latest-news-and-f...

[anonymous-user]

coldel said:

Roman Rhodes said:

Tesco have far fewer people working in fuel supply v meat supply.

Whats your source? And what does that actually mean? Tesco have no one working in fuel supply, nor meat supply, they are the retailer who receipt the products from suppliers and sells on to end consumers. Retailers have what are called category managers in the food business, these people manage the inventory and supply of their category. There is likely to be one category manager for meats, thats one person, who has a support function they report into. Fuel is a completely separate business just like the bank, mobile etc. is.

Be interested to here your quantification of the view above?

Not sure you understand how large retail works. The big supermarkets have people in and out of food suppliers all the time. They will treat suppliers of own brand products as if the factory belongs to them (the retailer). This involves checking specifications and product analysis. Fuel supply is much simpler - Tesco are just a retailer and will contract with suppliers (e.g. Greenergy) who will manage the product spec.
Fuel is not seperate like the bank.

[soupdragon1]

Camelot1971 said:

BAM225 said:

Camelot1971 said:

Just to be clear, you are saying that all fuel, regardless of brand, is exactly the same?

No, poor reading skills, must try harder, we are saying it all comes from the same place, the difference is the mixture provided.

So tesco fuel and bp fuel and shell fuel, all starts out the same, and then have addictives added depending on destination.

I read perfectly well, thank you. You and others are stating that all fuel is the same and therefore just buy it where it is cheapest.

But all fuel is not the same if the brands add their own additives. It's not unreasonable to expect there to be differences with the additives on how your car runs. Or are you saying that they make no difference at all?

Edited by Camelot1971 on Tuesday 21st August 11:41

I think the general consensus is that additive may help, but that doesn't make the other fuels worse. Like the good example earlier of adding Omega 3. The non Omega 3 stuff doesn't mean you'll be running to the toilet every half an hour. It just means the other stuff has an additive that some people might think it does them good.

Same for fuel. Except Tuesdays. Everyone knows you should avoid filling up the car on a Tuesday. Seamus the Shoe-Shine guy says 14% of all fuel issues are from people who filled up on a Tuesday. Seamus is pretty clued up with his stats so I tend to believe him.

[5harp3y]

i ran my last company car (Volvo v40 1.6 D) for 120,000 miles from new almost exclusively on Sainsburys diesel as i live 200 yards from the Petrol Station.

it never ever went wrong and had no problems with the engine / exhaust etc in all of those miles

dont worry about where you get your fuel from, worry about maintaining a good and proactive service history

[Wooda80]

soupdragon1 said:

Seamus the Shoe-Shine guy says 14% of all fuel issues are from people who filled up on a Tuesday. Seamus is pretty clued up with his stats so I tend to believe him.

14% is about one seventh, so he's probably right

[Shakermaker]

Heaveho said:

My works Ford Connect 110 does 40 miles more per tank on Shell diesel Nitro.

So what does that equate to in a "cost per mile" over the cost of supermarket fuel?

40 miles extra - for how many extra £?

[Aitch H]

DaveCWK said:

So, about those facts then.
It's not some great mystery of an industry - there must be someone reading who is qualified to comment on the potential differences?

- additives; composition, R&D etc
- exact blend of biofuel
- tank/pump/supply maintenance regime
- Supply route / turnover

... are just some random things that come to mind that might differ between retailers & affect the consumer.

I used to work for BP, and as others have said, it’s true all the fuel starts at the same few refineries but it’s what each supplier, ie BP, Shell etc do with it once they have it in their storage tanks/forecourts that differs. It’s silicone that they put in diesel, or at least they certainly used to, I’ve not been in the industry for a few years now so I’m sure someone will correct me! As for doing any damage....as red 4 said, I believe it’s ethanol that you should be worried about. My uncle owns and runs a 4000bhp top fuel nitro burning funny car, so between that and working at a BP refinery I’ve learnt a bit about fuels.
As for tank/pump/supply maintenance regime, this is the area I worked so I’ll try to stick to that.
BP’s fuel, so I assume Shell’s, Tesco’s and all other suppliers fuels are stored in huge storage tanks, ours were large enough to fit the Royal Albert Hall inside and we had 6 at the time. These tanks are periodically tested for fuel quality by both BP and independently. Every time a delivery is made the fuel is tested for quality before it gets put into the storage tank, again by both BP and independently, then tested periodically as already said, it is then tested when it is put into the tanker to be delivered to site and then it is tested again at site before being put into the underground forecourt tanks. Shell V Power and Tesco’s Momentum are the only 99 RON fuels available (to my knowledge, don’t know anything about Esso) Shell WERE the only supplier who had their own refinery, again that may have changed since I left the industry, and as for quality of fuel purchased to start with...I know for a fact that BP bought whatever was cheapest at the time, any old sh*t would do and they often sold on without it ever making it as far as their refinery, it was done by the trading floors who bought and sold it as they would with any trading commodity, I personally do not put BP fuel in my own car out of choice as I know what they’re like as a company, I only use Shell V Power*. But in a company car or a day to day cheap run around I’ll use BP, as there’s a BP station at the end of my road, or any other fuel and never had any problems with cars not running right etc.

*I also have live readings from my cars ecu and it seems to ‘perform’ better on V Power than any other fuel, by perform better I mean the readings are showing preferably, you’d never notice the difference from the drivers seat.

As for quality of fuels as a whole there is an industry standard, as has already been said, that everyone must adhere to and some companies go above that standard but it doesn’t mean the industry standard will harm your vehicle, I know I’ve already mentioned ethanol being the stuff that does any damage but it’s not so significant at the legal levels allowed that it’ll destroy an engine in 100,000 miles, it’ll more likely damage the fuel lines and seals in the pump etc which could lead to problems up the road but it won’t specifically do ‘damage’ to your engine as such.

This being pistonheads I’ll sit back and await the berating that’s undoubtably coming to me now for adding my two pence worth.

[alorotom]

No flaming from me, that was interesting to read

[Super Slo Mo]

NickGRhodes said:

I think you may be getting confused.

GTL is a different refinary process and not an additive.
GTL is a refinary process called Gas to Liquids and nothing to do with additives (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_to_liquids).

"Shell GTL Fuel is produced at the Pearl GTL plant in Ras Laffan, Qatar, the world’s largest facility for turning natural gas into cleaner-burning fuels and lubricants. Pearl GTL is a development between Qatar Petroleum and Shell. The fuel is now commercially available in The Netherlands, Germany, United Kingdom, Denmark and France."

https://www.shell.co.uk/about-us/latest-news-and-f...

That’s a different product than V Power isn’t it? V Power diesel has some GTL added, it’s not 100% GTL. Which is what the other guy said, more or less.

[bitchstewie]

I've run a few alternating tanks of Momentum and Sainsbury's Super Unleaded through my M140i and even in Comfort mode the car feels noticeably "preppier" on Momentum.

Not sure if it's simply the RON difference or something else (which could include me imagining it) but it's feels more noticeable and obvious than I expected.

I've always taken the view that the "best" fuel in terms of quality is Shell V-Power for the reasons given so far, but the price premium my way is nuts.

[Heaveho]

Shakermaker said:

So what does that equate to in a "cost per mile" over the cost of supermarket fuel?

40 miles extra - for how many extra £?

I couldn't care less, it was just a statement of fact that if I fill up with Shell Nitro, that's generally how much farther it will go on a like for like trip. Connects are crap on fuel whatever you put in them, just marginally less crap on more expensive fuel. It never gets better than 34mpg, but I use both feet on the throttle pedal!

As far as the fuel is concerned, if the Shell lasts longer than the same amount of the cheaper stuff, it would indicate that it is a more efficient fuel. Pity they charge more for it and ruin the benefit!

[anonymous-user]

Aitch H said:

DaveCWK said:

So, about those facts then.
It's not some great mystery of an industry - there must be someone reading who is qualified to comment on the potential differences?

- additives; composition, R&D etc
- exact blend of biofuel
- tank/pump/supply maintenance regime
- Supply route / turnover

... are just some random things that come to mind that might differ between retailers & affect the consumer.

I used to work for BP, and as others have said, it’s true all the fuel starts at the same few refineries but it’s what each supplier, ie BP, Shell etc do with it once they have it in their storage tanks/forecourts that differs. It’s silicone that they put in diesel, or at least they certainly used to, I’ve not been in the industry for a few years now so I’m sure someone will correct me! As for doing any damage....as red 4 said, I believe it’s ethanol that you should be worried about. My uncle owns and runs a 4000bhp top fuel nitro burning funny car, so between that and working at a BP refinery I’ve learnt a bit about fuels.
As for tank/pump/supply maintenance regime, this is the area I worked so I’ll try to stick to that.
BP’s fuel, so I assume Shell’s, Tesco’s and all other suppliers fuels are stored in huge storage tanks, ours were large enough to fit the Royal Albert Hall inside and we had 6 at the time. These tanks are periodically tested for fuel quality by both BP and independently. Every time a delivery is made the fuel is tested for quality before it gets put into the storage tank, again by both BP and independently, then tested periodically as already said, it is then tested when it is put into the tanker to be delivered to site and then it is tested again at site before being put into the underground forecourt tanks. Shell V Power and Tesco’s Momentum are the only 99 RON fuels available (to my knowledge, don’t know anything about Esso) Shell WERE the only supplier who had their own refinery, again that may have changed since I left the industry, and as for quality of fuel purchased to start with...I know for a fact that BP bought whatever was cheapest at the time, any old sh*t would do and they often sold on without it ever making it as far as their refinery, it was done by the trading floors who bought and sold it as they would with any trading commodity, I personally do not put BP fuel in my own car out of choice as I know what they’re like as a company, I only use Shell V Power*. But in a company car or a day to day cheap run around I’ll use BP, as there’s a BP station at the end of my road, or any other fuel and never had any problems with cars not running right etc.

*I also have live readings from my cars ecu and it seems to ‘perform’ better on V Power than any other fuel, by perform better I mean the readings are showing preferably, you’d never notice the difference from the drivers seat.

As for quality of fuels as a whole there is an industry standard, as has already been said, that everyone must adhere to and some companies go above that standard but it doesn’t mean the industry standard will harm your vehicle, I know I’ve already mentioned ethanol being the stuff that does any damage but it’s not so significant at the legal levels allowed that it’ll destroy an engine in 100,000 miles, it’ll more likely damage the fuel lines and seals in the pump etc which could lead to problems up the road but it won’t specifically do ‘damage’ to your engine as such.

This being pistonheads I’ll sit back and await the berating that’s undoubtably coming to me now for adding my two pence worth.

Testing when loaded onto the tanker: No.
Testing when delivered at site: No.

[Aitch H]

Roman Rhodes said:

Testing when loaded onto the tanker: No.
Testing when delivered at site: No.

Was every time when I worked for BP as that’s what I used to do. How do you know different then?

[manracer]

Some crazy comments on this thread, but I'll add my experiences so far.

My golf GTi pirelli seemed to pull a little harder on vpower Vs 95 RON. Certainly since being tuned to over 300bhp it is a noticeable difference but that's obvious as it's tuned for 99 RON now. I notice no difference at all in performance or mpg if I use Tesco 99 RON. In fact Tesco is all I use now as it is so much cheaper.

I noticed that before it was tuned it would occasionally throw an ECU light if I filled up with Morrisons 95 RON, though never anywhere else. This was while it was still under VW warranty and the dealer told me it was a fuel issue, but I'm no expert.

I have a cheap lease Scirocco R and that gets filled with whatever is close by when I need fuel (usually Tesco 99 but sometimes a local unbranded garage) and in 11000 miles no issues whatsoever.

[anonymous-user]

Aitch H said:

Roman Rhodes said:

Testing when loaded onto the tanker: No.
Testing when delivered at site: No.

Was every time when I worked for BP as that’s what I used to do. How do you know different then?

You (and others I assume) tested every tanker loading at the depots and every delivery at sites? How? Tested for what?

[MalcolmSmith]

Isn’t this going a bit off topic,

Shouldn’t we be comparing standard supermarket fuel vs standard ‘filling station branded’ fuel rather than bog standard vs V Power/ Momentum whatever?

I’m sure some cars will use the higher octane and advance the ignition to the higher knock point, but some dont.

If it works for you, use it, personally premium fuels and additives had never made a discernible difference for me.

[Aitch H]

Roman Rhodes said:

Aitch H said:

Roman Rhodes said:

Testing when loaded onto the tanker: No.
Testing when delivered at site: No.

Was every time when I worked for BP as that’s what I used to do. How do you know different then?

You (and others I assume) tested every tanker loading at the depots and every delivery at sites? How? Tested for what?

A sample of fuel is taken from the tanker when it’s loaded and put in a lab on site where it’s tested for fuel quality, a bit like a breathalyser if you like, by measuring the fuel quality by sampling its contents to determine if it comes within a dsegnated set of parameters, that being the aforementioned legal requirements, it is then tested by the driver using a sample when it arrives at site. So yes, every tanker loading is tested, like every storage tank is tested. Why do you find that so hard to believe In the modern world of overly cautious health & safety obsessed officials?

[anonymous-user]

Aitch H said:

Roman Rhodes said:

Aitch H said:

Roman Rhodes said:

Testing when loaded onto the tanker: No.
Testing when delivered at site: No.

Was every time when I worked for BP as that’s what I used to do. How do you know different then?

You (and others I assume) tested every tanker loading at the depots and every delivery at sites? How? Tested for what?

A sample of fuel is taken from the tanker when it’s loaded and put in a lab on site where it’s tested for fuel quality, a bit like a breathalyser if you like, by measuring the fuel quality by sampling its contents to determine if it comes within a dsegnated set of parameters, that being the aforementioned legal requirements, it is then tested by the driver using a sample when it arrives at site. So yes, every tanker loading is tested, like every storage tank is tested. Why do you find that so hard to believe In the modern world of overly cautious health & safety obsessed officials?

Having retailed several billion litres of fuel over the years I can confirm that no driver has ever tested fuel at a site or anywhere else. Not BP, Shell, Esso or anyone else! The vast majority of tanker drivers work for 3rd party logistics companies and have nothing to do with the fuel brand. Any testing at the gantry would be very infrequent and, again, nothing to do with the driver. I’m going back from present day to more than 30 years ago. Where you have got these ideas from I can’t imagine. Sorry if that sounds blunt - I do agree with the gist of some of your other points!

[Vipers]

Eyersey1234 said:

I usually get supermarket fuel and have never had any problems either

Same here for over twenty years.

[austinsmirk]

My wife has an electric car. Should I be concerned about my energy provider ? How can I check we’re getting the best electrickery through the cable ?

Joking aside I’ve dedicatedly put the cheapest fuel in every car I’ve had for 30 years. Can’t think of any issue ever.