RE: Lords of the Ring: Type R v Trophy-R v Clubsport S
Discussion
DoubleD said:
Is a GT86 lighter than the Megane?
86 is around 1250. decidedly more heavy than 1000kg, which is where i'd like to be in a fun road car.i think the Trophy is pretty much the same weight? and a very focused tool, which i guess is your point?
86's charm is lowish cog and an old school playfulness, but it's still quite heavy, esp on track.
when hatches get to 1500kg and beyond they lose a lot of feel even if the technology makes them more competent. at that level they've moved into M3 territory to my mind, and with it's all round abilities that's strangely where the CTR now is?
DoubleD said:
Is a GT86 lighter than the Megane?
Comparing with back seats, so a trophy RS, and on weights averaged declared and heaviest measured by magazines, it's 1240kg vs 1391kg. Throphy-R is 1300kg about. All weights kerb, all fluids with fuel, no driver.GT86 isn't superlight, mind compared to a mx-5 which happens often, it's a much bigger and more practical car which is easily forgotten on paper comparisons. Compared to a Megane, rwd does add weight so it's not massively lighter with its smaller size. That is why I couldn't find a rwd driver's car with the space (estate) I needed, they just become too heavy (>>1600kg) for my taste...
Derek Chevalier said:
Max_Torque said:
Konan said:
The 'ring isn't that bumpy.
Granted, for the 'record' times, they're probably running the kerb, but I'll drive on far worse A-road on a daily basis.
This^^ The 'ring is wide, smooth and pretty much only has 3rd gear and higher corners. Hence, modern hto hatches have huge grip, massive power and total stability, and a bone jarring ride.Granted, for the 'record' times, they're probably running the kerb, but I'll drive on far worse A-road on a daily basis.
if you want a proper B road car, go back and drive something like an old 306 gti-6, which dances over the lumps on its 15" wheels, and oversteers balletic-ally into the next turn/a ditch/an oncoming tractor (** delete as appropriate) at reasonably sensible speeds. Oh, Sure, with just 150bhp, it wouldn't see which way a CivicR had gone, but frankly, who cares?
it would also fold up like a soggy shoe box in a crash, fall apart on a daily basis, rust visibly in front of your eyes, have more breakdowns than Sienna Miller, and have less feature content than a 1952 East Berlin social housing flat ;-)
Nice article. But the Nurburgring is like a billard table compared to a typical British B-road (Excluding Karusell), Always think the whole 'bumpy' thing is over-egged, especially when talking about front wheel drive hatchbacks deisgned for the UK market. It's a shame the Civic wasn't offered on cup 2's either IMO, 19" wheel option and those would be nice.
Looking forward to new Megane cup vs. the rest.
Looking forward to new Megane cup vs. the rest.
krismccloy said:
Nice article. But the Nurburgring is like a billard table compared to a typical British B-road (Excluding Karusell), Always think the whole 'bumpy' thing is over-egged, especially when talking about front wheel drive hatchbacks deisgned for the UK market. It's a shame the Civic wasn't offered on cup 2's either IMO, 19" wheel option and those would be nice.
Looking forward to new Megane cup vs. the rest.
Agreed that the road is reasonably smooth but kerbs are certainly a challenge for a stiffly sprung car. I've taken the Civic round and it was very impressive, especially when I saw the lean angles on my friend's Golf R in the rear view mirror. In contrast he was certainly a lot quicker than me when manoeuvring onto the Eurotunnel - the Civic has a very wide track!Looking forward to new Megane cup vs. the rest.
Undecided on the Cup2s - I am pondering getting a set and see how I get on through winter. Not sure on 19s - the Civic is quite a large car and think 20s suit it
Niffty951 said:
Great read and fair conlusion. The Civic may be utterly hideous inside and out but it is the deserved winner. As mentioned in the comments above a great hot hatch is about having a car with two characters. It must be capable of everything your Golf tdi could do in terms of practicality/comfort AND put a smile on your face no less than a TVR when the moment takes you.
The Megan and the clubsport, amazing as I'm certain they are, have somehow lost their way in persuit of perfection in my book. If I want a compromised sports car to chase lap times and the last 10th in driving pleasure I would not be buying a FWD hatchback? (Tell me I'm wrong)
As the owner of a sorted Tuscan 2S, “a smile on your face no less than a TVR” would be a stretch for any hatch I’m afraid. This Megane might just do it though...The Megan and the clubsport, amazing as I'm certain they are, have somehow lost their way in persuit of perfection in my book. If I want a compromised sports car to chase lap times and the last 10th in driving pleasure I would not be buying a FWD hatchback? (Tell me I'm wrong)
Edited by Niffty951 on Monday 27th August 20:35
CABC said:
totally this. weight is so important to real feel at road speeds.
fix the weak engine characteristics of an 86 or 5 and they're so much more rewarding than anything else under 60k. (except Lotus/Caterham/Ariel). There's plenty of kit and expertise for these cars. It's a shame there isn't the same depth available for lighter hatches like the older Swifts etc. Just a little more oomph in a 1000kg Swift, say 175, and it would be a great hh.
Agreed, the ND & 86 are also both naturally aspirated and in mildly tuned form offer really quite responsive engines. The other thing that I don't think the press explain well enough is steering corruption in these hot hatches. I can only comment on the Renaultsport and wouldn't say that it torque steers badly; in fact far from it, but there is some steering corruption that you have to drive around in certain conditions. This became a bit tiresome for me and I craved the pure steering feel of a rwd set up like the 86. Can the (lightly modified) 86 ever match the sheer focus of the Megane ? I'm not so sure. Is the 86 as much fun on the road ? Absolutely, and with better steering and a way more responsive engine to boot. On the right road the Megane can leave you utterly in awe of its abilities given it's humble origins but these instance were rare for me, cars like the 86 & ND offer more fun more of the time in the real world.fix the weak engine characteristics of an 86 or 5 and they're so much more rewarding than anything else under 60k. (except Lotus/Caterham/Ariel). There's plenty of kit and expertise for these cars. It's a shame there isn't the same depth available for lighter hatches like the older Swifts etc. Just a little more oomph in a 1000kg Swift, say 175, and it would be a great hh.
Simon Owen said:
Agreed, the ND & 86 are also both naturally aspirated and in mildly tuned form offer really quite responsive engines. The other thing that I don't think the press explain well enough is steering corruption in these hot hatches. I can only comment on the Renaultsport and wouldn't say that it torque steers badly; in fact far from it, but there is some steering corruption that you have to drive around in certain conditions. This became a bit tiresome for me and I craved the pure steering feel of a rwd set up like the 86. Can the (lightly modified) 86 ever match the sheer focus of the Megane ? I'm not so sure. Is the 86 as much fun on the road ? Absolutely, and with better steering and a way more responsive engine to boot. On the right road the Megane can leave you utterly in awe of its abilities given it's humble origins but these instance were rare for me, cars like the 86 & ND offer more fun more of the time in the real world.
amongst many other criticisms, the GT86/BRZ have electric steering racks, so despite what you describe it doesn't have fantastic steering feel.Olivera said:
amongst many other criticisms, the GT86/BRZ have electric steering racks, so despite what you describe it doesn't have fantastic steering feel.
"Fantastic steering feel" now there is a debate, and a very subjective one IMHO. I'm actually OK with EPAS if it is done well, Renaultsport with the Trophy Megane and Toyota with the 86 do a pretty good job of this. Note my observations are against a mildly tweaked geo set up & tyre spec on the 86.it's an interesting topic, where does 'feel' come from?
some epas are better than others. nothing beats an Elige (no pas whatsoever, let's see what happens with the next gen cars). Then there's the chassis, seats and how low & tight the driver sits.
i don't think epas has to be that bad, but most manufacturers are focusing elsewhere on their cars and mostly dialling out any feel. throttle response should be the fastest and cleanest it's ever been in history, but....
some epas are better than others. nothing beats an Elige (no pas whatsoever, let's see what happens with the next gen cars). Then there's the chassis, seats and how low & tight the driver sits.
i don't think epas has to be that bad, but most manufacturers are focusing elsewhere on their cars and mostly dialling out any feel. throttle response should be the fastest and cleanest it's ever been in history, but....
Olivera said:
amongst many other criticisms, the GT86/BRZ have electric steering racks, so despite what you describe it doesn't have fantastic steering feel.
Agree on that, the difference is that a 86 is a blank sheet while the Megane R is mostly maxed out in dynamic ability already. On the 86, solid steeringrack bushes, rear subframe inserts and a well judged measure of toe (out in front, in rear) did wonders for steering and seat of the pants feel, lighter wheels and actual sporty tyres help a lot too. And no fwd/awd can deal with a rutted road and hard acceleration without one hanging onto your steering wheel... They are all great cars, each in their way... Interestingly on a recent 'fast road' tour of the NH Highlands I jumped from a 275 Trophy on Ohlins to a Mk 1 997 911 CS. Yes the steering in the 911 was nice but it wasn't the stand out feature of the 911 that felt special over the Megane. Not a criticism of the steering in the 911 by the way, but more that the steering in the Megane didn't feel that bad next to it that's all. Lack of steering corruption due to the rwd set of the 911 was an obvious benefit of the Porsche though.
( rear subframe inserts & steering rack bush kit under consideration ... cheers )
( rear subframe inserts & steering rack bush kit under consideration ... cheers )
Edited by Simon Owen on Wednesday 29th August 13:15
Edited by Simon Owen on Wednesday 29th August 14:17
Housey said:
macky17 said:
Housey said:
I am considering a Type R at the moment. It's a tough one as I am 51 so aesthetics are laughable but planning to use it as my daily run about to keep miles off my more special car. Having driven it I can see what all the fuss is about. It is exceptional, truly fantastic as an all round and relatively practical daily car that can put a smile on your face on the right roads. Makes the Golf R appear as a plan boring invisible nothing. Sure the Golf R is quicker in a straight line, looks better and is more discreet, but when it comes A to B in the most exciting way possible the Golf R is MILES off.
I agree with your last point but still believe the golf R would be a better daily. In 27 years of driving and some 50 cars it's the best daily I've ever had.But do not be fooled by the wings and aero, it's absolutely a match in nearly every way for the Golf R as an all rounder. It matches the Golfs kit, build quality, economy and usability whilst having a better ride better seats and being fundamentally roomier if that's important. Of course its also batting on a different level chassis wise being amazingly composed, sharp as a razor , remarkable turn in and laugh out loud grip.Only gripes with mine is pedals too far apart for H/T driving (Good rev match system though) slightly laggy if well specced infotainment and a disappointing sound track.
After 2 Megane RS's and nearly 50k miles its finally the one that put them in the shade. no doubt the Trophy R is fabulous as a drivers car but my regular and slightly tuned 275 Trophy could only claim slightly better steering and a playful wag of its tail at the limit as areas that I felt were better , the Honda is the better car in every other way.
jl4069 said:
Onehp said:
4wd gives a more secure behavior on throttle in a curve in slippery conditions, but that is about it.
[/b]
Well I'll take it then. Because the roads are wet and curvy a whole lot. [/b]
Personally, when I want to enjoy my drive and press on a bit, I want to get a feel for how much grip there actually is. With a 4wd car I feel more like driving blind in respect to grip, the only time you get to gauge grip safely is on turn in and the resulting (usually earlier) understeer. Otherwise, when all four get loose, you're already going way to fast... With fwd, I can get a better sense of grip levels more of the time, it is still safe if you press on too much, also out of a curve you get some (power) understeer but can just ease of and not as tricky as rwd which is great fun obviously but not exactly safe. And fwd with a lsd diff and good sense of grip levels, you can still power out of curves mighty fast enough to have real fun - slow in, fast out remains the safe way to have fun any day. Because of this better sense of grip, you can get away with a sharper front end too, which is a very rewarding sense.
For a daily driven car, FWD offers a good mix of dynamic enjoyment and safety.
Edited by Onehp on Friday 31st August 08:51
Onehp said:
Sure. If you just want to be safe, ESP and good tyres is what you need. If you want to feel safe, 4wd is nice. If you're pressing on and think you're safe because the car grips and is stable, you might be out on a ledge. Because you'll be going faster when it goes wrong, same story as in the snow...
Personally, when I want to enjoy my drive and press on a bit, I want to get a feel for how much grip there actually is. With a 4wd car I feel more like driving blind in respect to grip, the only time you get to gauge grip safely is on turn in and the resulting (usually earlier) understeer. Otherwise, when all four get loose, you're already going way to fast... With fwd, I can get a better sense of grip levels more of the time, it is still safe if you press on too much, also out of a curve you get some (power) understeer but can just ease of and not as tricky as rwd which is great fun obviously but not exactly safe. And fwd with a lsd diff and good sense of grip levels, you can still power out of curves mighty fast enough to have real fun - slow in, fast out remains the safe way to have fun any day. Because of this better sense of grip, you can get away with a sharper front end too, which is a very rewarding sense.
For a daily driven car, FWD offers a good mix of dynamic enjoyment and safety.
Ive owned several older Impreza's and a UrQuattro and none of these ever handled unpredictably. Mild understeer at the limit like the FWD cars, but more traction more of the time. I understand that the Focus RS is also very predictable and safe at the limit. jPersonally, when I want to enjoy my drive and press on a bit, I want to get a feel for how much grip there actually is. With a 4wd car I feel more like driving blind in respect to grip, the only time you get to gauge grip safely is on turn in and the resulting (usually earlier) understeer. Otherwise, when all four get loose, you're already going way to fast... With fwd, I can get a better sense of grip levels more of the time, it is still safe if you press on too much, also out of a curve you get some (power) understeer but can just ease of and not as tricky as rwd which is great fun obviously but not exactly safe. And fwd with a lsd diff and good sense of grip levels, you can still power out of curves mighty fast enough to have real fun - slow in, fast out remains the safe way to have fun any day. Because of this better sense of grip, you can get away with a sharper front end too, which is a very rewarding sense.
For a daily driven car, FWD offers a good mix of dynamic enjoyment and safety.
Edited by Onehp on Friday 31st August 08:51
I'll word it differently. The thing with driving fast on real roads, first pass, is knowing what grip you have available. The main risk factor being having less grip than what you thought you had. The 4wd traction isn't really helping, because when you notice that you're in trouble because of lower than expected grip, you'll be going faster, without any advantage in slowing the car down.
A real good driver knows this as a simple fact, and can of course adjust their driving to this. And as a result will be safer at a given speed as they have more traction reserve and mid corner stability. My issue is that 4wd is by habit proposed as the safer option full stop. This simply isn't true, especially in the case where a average driver presses on, thinking he/she is safer because of 4wd. When it goes wrong, it's simply regarded as the drivers fault. Which it of course is in the end, every time, but it could be appropriate to be a bit more critical to how 4wd is presented and what role it has in mishaps where a driver isn't able to keep the car on the road due to excessive speed...
The other scenario is of the professional rally driver with a 4wd car that is so powerful that he/she can gauge traction by being able to break traction at relevant (high enough) speeds...
A real good driver knows this as a simple fact, and can of course adjust their driving to this. And as a result will be safer at a given speed as they have more traction reserve and mid corner stability. My issue is that 4wd is by habit proposed as the safer option full stop. This simply isn't true, especially in the case where a average driver presses on, thinking he/she is safer because of 4wd. When it goes wrong, it's simply regarded as the drivers fault. Which it of course is in the end, every time, but it could be appropriate to be a bit more critical to how 4wd is presented and what role it has in mishaps where a driver isn't able to keep the car on the road due to excessive speed...
The other scenario is of the professional rally driver with a 4wd car that is so powerful that he/she can gauge traction by being able to break traction at relevant (high enough) speeds...
Edited by Onehp on Sunday 2nd September 02:16
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